Even as someone who never aligned with the idea of the Dominion, I wholeheartedly agree with Maina here.
This is rough. So many things are just tossed out the window with this movement. Numerous characters were created with the intention of joining the Dominion once the faction split occurred, even since Mistral was confirmed as the other faction about three years ago now.
I hesitate to complain about something decided by the staff, something that undoubtedly took a lot of thought and time to decide upon, and something, as you mentioned, was made because the staff wasn't happy with it. There is rarely a time in a game like this where I go, 'But what about the players?' This isn't Grand Theft Auto. This isn't some studio-made game with a pre-written story. It's a collaborative effort. But what about the players? Many of us would have probably been happy to discuss this sort of thing because we want a game that feels as good for you all as it does for us.
Although she expressed it more aggressively than I might, I also agree with Maina on wondering what other hard work might just be tossed out the window. I know this kind of harsh commentary on a well-thought-out change is not a good thing to do, but I can't help but be a little stung by the lack of any sort of warning or even consultation.
I'm not trying to point fingers, or convict anyone of any crime but doing what they think is right. I would, however, very much enjoy a point of view from the other staff involved in this situation.
Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
Re: Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
They're not taking away Mistral. The Dominion is gone, yes, but the town isn't, with all its history and nuance.
I can understand why this would seem like a huge shock, however, don't lose hope. No one is taking the town away, just aspects of what was going on that felt bad to the admin team.
I'm sorry some of you feel hurt or stunned or whatever else you're feeling over this. I really am. Sending hugs.
I can understand why this would seem like a huge shock, however, don't lose hope. No one is taking the town away, just aspects of what was going on that felt bad to the admin team.
I'm sorry some of you feel hurt or stunned or whatever else you're feeling over this. I really am. Sending hugs.
Re: Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
I'm not hugely a fan of this big of a pivot so rapidly and without warning personally.
But that aside, I'm curious about a couple of specific things with this change:
But that aside, I'm curious about a couple of specific things with this change:
- How, if at all, will this impact the Harbingers Society? I was under the impression that eventually the Harbingers would be a bit of an "open" organization to join, so long as you were a member of the Dominion. Will that still be the case, or will they be operating elsewhere? Will they be invite-only, or will anyone (eventually) be allowed to join up? Or are the Harbingers sticking around at all?
- How will this impact potential Ascetics/Monks/Templars (unsure of what this society is actually called), with regards to Mistral Lake?
- Will Mistral Lake still be a place that offers open citizenship to folks, and if not:
- If Mistral Lake will no longer be a place that characters can "join": how will this impact Shadgard's market? It feels like this might cause Shadgard suddenly be susceptible to increased flooding, or will the flooding limits be laxed a bit? Will the expectation of dealing with marketplace flooding simply be "go elsewhere to sell"?
- If Mistral Lake is still open to join with regards to citizenship, will there still be a limitations on which active PCs we have can be affiliated with which town?
- Is the Rook Parlour still going to be primarily based out of Mistral Lake
- What, if any, changes to the CvC policy will be happening alongside this change in direction?
Last edited by Lexx416 on Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods... Remnants of an older time they be, living few and secretly, wild and wary as beasts."
Re: Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
I'll address my opinions on the CVC shift separately, because they're separate.
Dangit! But that's it. I'm not an experience roleplay MUDder, but I've heard the horror stories. But I was under the firm opinion that with all of the prebuilding we'd been doing, it would all be fine enough. You can't have a game where there are situations where you can reasonably expect to be murdered by another player and also expect every single person to be happy. But like...it says it on the tin.
I'm disappointed, because I'd been aproaching things with the knowledge that one day I might end up having to fight these people, even if I didn't want to. That's one of the biggest reasons my character is as harsh to certain people as he is. I'm probably going to have to change that about him, because otherwise people might just go, 'why are you being this way in a game where the PCs have to work together?' This isn't about my character struggles, though. It's about everyone else's, from the north.
Anyway, is this shift away from CVC going to impact us who sometimes decide to stab each other for reasons? Is it suddenly just going to be a blanket sort of, don't do CVC, thing? Maybe that sounds like an overreaction and petty to ask, but it's a genuine question. I want to know how far this goes.
Dangit! But that's it. I'm not an experience roleplay MUDder, but I've heard the horror stories. But I was under the firm opinion that with all of the prebuilding we'd been doing, it would all be fine enough. You can't have a game where there are situations where you can reasonably expect to be murdered by another player and also expect every single person to be happy. But like...it says it on the tin.
I'm disappointed, because I'd been aproaching things with the knowledge that one day I might end up having to fight these people, even if I didn't want to. That's one of the biggest reasons my character is as harsh to certain people as he is. I'm probably going to have to change that about him, because otherwise people might just go, 'why are you being this way in a game where the PCs have to work together?' This isn't about my character struggles, though. It's about everyone else's, from the north.
Anyway, is this shift away from CVC going to impact us who sometimes decide to stab each other for reasons? Is it suddenly just going to be a blanket sort of, don't do CVC, thing? Maybe that sounds like an overreaction and petty to ask, but it's a genuine question. I want to know how far this goes.
Re: Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
A few thoughts as a starting player. One of the things that drew me to COGG was the constantly changing mechanics, and actively player-driven narrative.
The dissolution of the Dominion is yet another proof that COGG is not afraid to challenge the status quo, and to make major changes to the lore/mechanics.
One suggestion I would have in this regard however, is to give players IC-ly, a chance to live the dissolution of the Dominion first-hand.. Perhaps even to leave the possibility that the dissolution may be prevented if certain battles are won as the events unfold. (regardless, things will never be the same again)
If player cooperation is the aim, what better way to achieve it than to make it very clear that the only way the Dominion could survive is by joining forces with Shadgard to defend against the attacks from the North? And then proceed with a multi-day event in which wave after wave of Nethrim (led perhaps by a big baddie) swarm into Mistral Lake, with some trickling further South.. Mistral would be overrun, the defenses would fall, everyone would be forced to retreat and hold in Shadgard together.. Being out in the wilderness by oneself would be dangerous. It would disrupt everything. It would be awesome.
The proud Dominion citizens may choose to attempt this battle alone, facing certain death and destruction heroically... And if they do so, they would die. (Perhaps a death that involves body/equipment destruction?) Or they may choose to seek help from Shadgard, to trust them and accept them, which in the future would set the stage for improved relationships against a common foe.
Conversely, Shadgard may refuse to help and choose to lock themselves in rather than leave their own city "wide open" to enemy attacks..
I am perhaps wrong, but from what I've seen so far of the playerbase, I expect they would be less likely to disagree with a well-played-out IC event than an executive decision.. This would probably be the most epic event I would have ever experienced in a game. My plea is therefore to establish a set of trials that will test the mettle of Dominion members (and everyone else, really), and give them a chance to prove why they have a right to exist as a faction. To prove their resourcefulness and their ability to cooperate. To chose their own destiny.
I rest my case.
D
The dissolution of the Dominion is yet another proof that COGG is not afraid to challenge the status quo, and to make major changes to the lore/mechanics.
One suggestion I would have in this regard however, is to give players IC-ly, a chance to live the dissolution of the Dominion first-hand.. Perhaps even to leave the possibility that the dissolution may be prevented if certain battles are won as the events unfold. (regardless, things will never be the same again)
If player cooperation is the aim, what better way to achieve it than to make it very clear that the only way the Dominion could survive is by joining forces with Shadgard to defend against the attacks from the North? And then proceed with a multi-day event in which wave after wave of Nethrim (led perhaps by a big baddie) swarm into Mistral Lake, with some trickling further South.. Mistral would be overrun, the defenses would fall, everyone would be forced to retreat and hold in Shadgard together.. Being out in the wilderness by oneself would be dangerous. It would disrupt everything. It would be awesome.
The proud Dominion citizens may choose to attempt this battle alone, facing certain death and destruction heroically... And if they do so, they would die. (Perhaps a death that involves body/equipment destruction?) Or they may choose to seek help from Shadgard, to trust them and accept them, which in the future would set the stage for improved relationships against a common foe.
Conversely, Shadgard may refuse to help and choose to lock themselves in rather than leave their own city "wide open" to enemy attacks..
I am perhaps wrong, but from what I've seen so far of the playerbase, I expect they would be less likely to disagree with a well-played-out IC event than an executive decision.. This would probably be the most epic event I would have ever experienced in a game. My plea is therefore to establish a set of trials that will test the mettle of Dominion members (and everyone else, really), and give them a chance to prove why they have a right to exist as a faction. To prove their resourcefulness and their ability to cooperate. To chose their own destiny.
I rest my case.
D
Re: Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
For those speaking on CvC, keep in mind that Rias's post addresses faction CvC or faction conflict, not CvC in general (despite the title not adding that word in).
Re: Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
I admire your intent, Dahann. Unfortunately, all the events have kinda happened, already.
Re: Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
Oh my, where to start.
I suppose, firstly, we’ll go with how difficult a decision this must have been for staff to make. I’ve heard rumors, and seen first hand, the staff effort involved over the past (almost) year – They poured their life’s blood into the place. Not to mention the effort the players themselves have put into making it ... unique. Personally, I regretted my knee-jerk decision to be a Dominion citizen, but in the end, turned it into a different purpose with the express intention of, eventually, getting banned from the place. Unrelated, but you’ve cost my character a job!!
As to the CVC aspect of the change; Well, I’m not one for CvC, never have been, but I can see the sense of loss in those who put forth the effort to make something happen within the bounds of the game. That’s not to say Gorth’s character (and others!) still isn’t on a hitlist somewhere for murdering guards. The bloody history is still there, regardless of the “clean slate” memorandum, and I should think that something down the line still may be forthcoming to deal with them. It just might not be a player hunting them down (unless one volunteered for it!).
I am a bit ... lost now, though. Spending the last few months as a “spy” in Mistral, reporting down to Shadgard about key incidents, has been fun, yet, as stated above, I had an ulterior motive. It seems that won’t likely come to pass now, though. Some oiling of the old brain pan is in order to see what other shenanigans I can come up with.
I look forward to the opportunity to figure it out!
I suppose, firstly, we’ll go with how difficult a decision this must have been for staff to make. I’ve heard rumors, and seen first hand, the staff effort involved over the past (almost) year – They poured their life’s blood into the place. Not to mention the effort the players themselves have put into making it ... unique. Personally, I regretted my knee-jerk decision to be a Dominion citizen, but in the end, turned it into a different purpose with the express intention of, eventually, getting banned from the place. Unrelated, but you’ve cost my character a job!!
This, in itself, was the biggest complaint I have with Mistral/Dominion. Though I’m far from a great roleplayer, the prevailing sense I got with the other characters was that they were the “favored” among the Keep’s staff. That’s not to say that staff, and certainly players, never included anyone else – far from it! – just that it seemed a reoccurring theme which, for a new player, was disheartening to see. I understand it, I really do, but it gave the feeling that to be a part of the dominion, you “had” to see things and do things as these experienced characters insisted. If you wanted to roleplay, it “had” to be in conjunction with something these characters did. I’m sure that wasn’t specifically the case, yet it was the feeling I had when attempting anything there. Which is why my character moved back up to Mistral, to “spy” on them for Shadgard (incidentally, this turned out far more enjoyable than I anticipated). All in all, I’ve had a great year of roleplaying with players and staff, so please don’t think the above as negative, merely an observation – You have ALL made it worth playing, both player and staff alike.Rias wrote: - The Dominion being so extremely hierarchical and reliant on dispensing information only-as-necessary (or via propaganda) made it frustrating trying to play to that while also trying to find a believable way to keep players informed or involved without feeling like it was playing favorites and feeling overall elite and exclusive. The result would often make players/PCs feel a significant level of detachment from their faction and government, as well as each other. It also encouraged faction members to fight among one another to establish themselves in the hierarchy or prove their loyalty over others, and that felt icky.
As to the CVC aspect of the change; Well, I’m not one for CvC, never have been, but I can see the sense of loss in those who put forth the effort to make something happen within the bounds of the game. That’s not to say Gorth’s character (and others!) still isn’t on a hitlist somewhere for murdering guards. The bloody history is still there, regardless of the “clean slate” memorandum, and I should think that something down the line still may be forthcoming to deal with them. It just might not be a player hunting them down (unless one volunteered for it!).
I am a bit ... lost now, though. Spending the last few months as a “spy” in Mistral, reporting down to Shadgard about key incidents, has been fun, yet, as stated above, I had an ulterior motive. It seems that won’t likely come to pass now, though. Some oiling of the old brain pan is in order to see what other shenanigans I can come up with.
I look forward to the opportunity to figure it out!
Re: Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
We're not expecting all tensions to immediately go away and for everyone to trust one another. It'll be interesting to see how things go with that moving forward, seeing how the relationship between Mistral and Shadgard develops from here. Mistral hasn't just pardoned those who attacked their citizens, and the rest of the Lost Lands hasn't just forgotten that Mistral Lake has spent the last several years forcing many other people under their rule and attempting to seize land and resources as the Dominion.
- Do non-Mistralites put the blame on the Council and forgive "the people" of Mistral Lake?
- Do they feel the people were in on it too, or that they should have stopped it sooner so they're not off the hook?
- Are the Dominion protesters/resisters mad that Shadgard (the town/government, not necessarily the PCs) by and large opted to not get involved and just sat back while the Dominion did the things they were protesting/resisting?
- Are there still Dominion loyalists who refuse to let the dream die and continue to begrudge those who opposed them and attacked their people?
(My intent in listing these is not to say that any single one will be the case, but rather that all of them are believable responses, and reponses will vary from individual to individual.)
There will be lingering tension there, for sure, and there's no ask from me for people to pretend like none of the past conflict happened or to suddenly be forgiving and wipe the slate clean. Can these tensions be worked through so Shadgard and Mistral Lake can face what other threats the Lost Lands have in store for them? That'll be interesting to see.
Regarding Shadgard versus Mistral Lake development-wise: We don't have the bandwidth as staff to double every effort and mirror the world to have completely equal opportunities, resources, events and storyline arcs, combat zones, and so forth on both sides of the Balkr Mountains. Nor do we particularly want to have to essentially do everything twice. It can be very demotivating to have an idea only to realize, "well, if I do this, I'm going to have to come up with something for the other team as well and double my effort." This is part of why I want to shift away from the "teams" mindset. Sometimes there might be an addition down south that doesn't get mirrored up north. Sometimes there might be an addition up north that doesn't get mirrored down south. Some things will be available in Mistral that aren't in Shadgard, some vice-versa. I don't think we need them to both be completely equal in all things. Shadgard has always been my personal preference so at least from me, it's going to get more attention. We do have GMs (plural) that much prefer Mistral Lake over Shadgard, and are feeling much more comfortable doing things with it now that it will be the much more manageable scope of just Mistral Lake.
Some might suggest that we bring on more staff, but frankly I don't want to have a larger staff and a larger world. I want to keep things feeling more contained and local and thus events more widely relevant and applicable, with people caring about the same things. Not essentially running two versions of the game side by side that only occasionally overlap, with a split playerbase and each only really caring about their own side of the playground and shunning the other.
We knew this wasn't going to feel very good for some people. It's never great to have an investment end up not paying off, and we had some heavy investors into the Dominion. I apologize to everyone who is feeling that way right now. I'm feeling that way too! I invested a lot into this idea and its implementation, but sometimes things just don't work out. I'm sorry it feels like it came out of the blue or too quickly. While the final decision wasn't made until recently, the potential for it has been getting prepped for a good while. There have been hints (of attempted increasing visibility over time) that things haven't been going well for the Dominion, particularly in "the north" for quite some time. Rumors and supply events about needing more troops and gear, rebels causing trouble both abroad and uncomfortably close to Mistral Lake itself, the resistance pamphlets getting spread around town trying to reveal some info the Dominion wouldn't allow to be revealed, struggling to maintain holdings both north and south of Mistral Lake, the iron drive, the fall of Mountain Gate, the fall of Fort Haarskard, and finally the protests and riots. Some probably didn't realize things were bad until the protests and riots because those were pretty impossible to miss, and viewed on their own I'm sure seemed rather sudden. I think this highlights the issue we had with the Dominion's way of keeping information hidden and any bad press silenced (and their encouraging PCs to do so as well). That said, I'll not argue any claims that it could have been done better.
Q: How, if at all, will this impact the Harbingers Society?
A: Harbingers stuff is still a bit rocky and uncertain. That said, "Dominion gone" does not by any means equate to "Harbingers gone."
Q: How will this impact potential Ascetics/Monks/Templars (unsure of what this society is actually called), with regards to Mistral Lake?
A: It will likely mean acceptance of them back into Mistral Lake, though it wouldn't happen overnight.
Q: Will Mistral Lake still be a place that offers open citizenship to folks?
A: Yep!
Q: Will there still be a limitations on which active PCs we have can be affiliated with which town?
A: That doesn't seem necessary any longer, since there won't be an enforced conflict between the two, but I haven't made the decision quite yet. There might be some potential for citizenship changes as well, though IF that happens I'd still want it to be a case-by-case situation and not just a given.
Q: Is the Rook Parlour still going to be primarily based out of Mistral Lake?
A: They have other locations as well, but I do really like the Mistral one! They're right there in the open in town, for everyone to see.
Q: What, if any, changes to the CvC policy will be happening alongside this change in direction?
A: I don't think any changes to the policy need to be made, but I might be overlooking some considerations so please bring up any suggestions or concerns. (Hopefully this addresses other comments about CvC beyond Lexx's.)
P.S. Just so everyone knows, commerce permits are no longer needed in Mistral Lake.
P.P.S. If market flooding gets bad, we can tweak the numbers, or even how it's implemented. It's admittedly pretty flawed in its current implementation.
- Do non-Mistralites put the blame on the Council and forgive "the people" of Mistral Lake?
- Do they feel the people were in on it too, or that they should have stopped it sooner so they're not off the hook?
- Are the Dominion protesters/resisters mad that Shadgard (the town/government, not necessarily the PCs) by and large opted to not get involved and just sat back while the Dominion did the things they were protesting/resisting?
- Are there still Dominion loyalists who refuse to let the dream die and continue to begrudge those who opposed them and attacked their people?
(My intent in listing these is not to say that any single one will be the case, but rather that all of them are believable responses, and reponses will vary from individual to individual.)
There will be lingering tension there, for sure, and there's no ask from me for people to pretend like none of the past conflict happened or to suddenly be forgiving and wipe the slate clean. Can these tensions be worked through so Shadgard and Mistral Lake can face what other threats the Lost Lands have in store for them? That'll be interesting to see.
Regarding Shadgard versus Mistral Lake development-wise: We don't have the bandwidth as staff to double every effort and mirror the world to have completely equal opportunities, resources, events and storyline arcs, combat zones, and so forth on both sides of the Balkr Mountains. Nor do we particularly want to have to essentially do everything twice. It can be very demotivating to have an idea only to realize, "well, if I do this, I'm going to have to come up with something for the other team as well and double my effort." This is part of why I want to shift away from the "teams" mindset. Sometimes there might be an addition down south that doesn't get mirrored up north. Sometimes there might be an addition up north that doesn't get mirrored down south. Some things will be available in Mistral that aren't in Shadgard, some vice-versa. I don't think we need them to both be completely equal in all things. Shadgard has always been my personal preference so at least from me, it's going to get more attention. We do have GMs (plural) that much prefer Mistral Lake over Shadgard, and are feeling much more comfortable doing things with it now that it will be the much more manageable scope of just Mistral Lake.
Some might suggest that we bring on more staff, but frankly I don't want to have a larger staff and a larger world. I want to keep things feeling more contained and local and thus events more widely relevant and applicable, with people caring about the same things. Not essentially running two versions of the game side by side that only occasionally overlap, with a split playerbase and each only really caring about their own side of the playground and shunning the other.
We knew this wasn't going to feel very good for some people. It's never great to have an investment end up not paying off, and we had some heavy investors into the Dominion. I apologize to everyone who is feeling that way right now. I'm feeling that way too! I invested a lot into this idea and its implementation, but sometimes things just don't work out. I'm sorry it feels like it came out of the blue or too quickly. While the final decision wasn't made until recently, the potential for it has been getting prepped for a good while. There have been hints (of attempted increasing visibility over time) that things haven't been going well for the Dominion, particularly in "the north" for quite some time. Rumors and supply events about needing more troops and gear, rebels causing trouble both abroad and uncomfortably close to Mistral Lake itself, the resistance pamphlets getting spread around town trying to reveal some info the Dominion wouldn't allow to be revealed, struggling to maintain holdings both north and south of Mistral Lake, the iron drive, the fall of Mountain Gate, the fall of Fort Haarskard, and finally the protests and riots. Some probably didn't realize things were bad until the protests and riots because those were pretty impossible to miss, and viewed on their own I'm sure seemed rather sudden. I think this highlights the issue we had with the Dominion's way of keeping information hidden and any bad press silenced (and their encouraging PCs to do so as well). That said, I'll not argue any claims that it could have been done better.
Q: How, if at all, will this impact the Harbingers Society?
A: Harbingers stuff is still a bit rocky and uncertain. That said, "Dominion gone" does not by any means equate to "Harbingers gone."
Q: How will this impact potential Ascetics/Monks/Templars (unsure of what this society is actually called), with regards to Mistral Lake?
A: It will likely mean acceptance of them back into Mistral Lake, though it wouldn't happen overnight.
Q: Will Mistral Lake still be a place that offers open citizenship to folks?
A: Yep!
Q: Will there still be a limitations on which active PCs we have can be affiliated with which town?
A: That doesn't seem necessary any longer, since there won't be an enforced conflict between the two, but I haven't made the decision quite yet. There might be some potential for citizenship changes as well, though IF that happens I'd still want it to be a case-by-case situation and not just a given.
Q: Is the Rook Parlour still going to be primarily based out of Mistral Lake?
A: They have other locations as well, but I do really like the Mistral one! They're right there in the open in town, for everyone to see.
Q: What, if any, changes to the CvC policy will be happening alongside this change in direction?
A: I don't think any changes to the policy need to be made, but I might be overlooking some considerations so please bring up any suggestions or concerns. (Hopefully this addresses other comments about CvC beyond Lexx's.)
P.S. Just so everyone knows, commerce permits are no longer needed in Mistral Lake.
P.P.S. If market flooding gets bad, we can tweak the numbers, or even how it's implemented. It's admittedly pretty flawed in its current implementation.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
<Fellborn> NO
Re: Dominion Dissolution, Mistral Lake (it's staying), and also moving away from CvC focus aspirations
You guys probably shouldn't be sharing your stories, current or past. This isn't a clean slate. This is a change. This is not a retcon of what was. The two are very, very different.
Just ... be aware.
Also, Dahann, your ideas are brilliant! And there's nothing to say they couldn't still happen, even if things have already been decided. I can think of reasons why there could be a huge event surrounding all this! It's exciting to think about.
Just ... be aware.
Also, Dahann, your ideas are brilliant! And there's nothing to say they couldn't still happen, even if things have already been decided. I can think of reasons why there could be a huge event surrounding all this! It's exciting to think about.