Shields are the best defense hands down

[Verel]

Dear COGGites,

I've noticed something. Whenever I fight a shielded fighter, often times they defend against any strike I perform with literally no consequences to them. As of now, I could literally get any shield, go to the worst parts of the COGG universe, and be completely safe because any strike they hit me with will be automatically or almost always blocked by my shield.

Shields should not make every mob you fight basically invincible which is what's happening right now. Here are some ideas:

1. Hammers and heavier weapons should cause at least some damage even when holding a shield because of the amount of force you're applying to hit that shield. Most combatants in real life would at the very least suffer some type of minor damage when being struck with a hammer even if they have a shield on their arm because of the force of these weapons.

2. Bring back two-handed flails with the ability to wrap around shields like Clok had. Not saying it has to be every time but shielded fighters should not automatically expect to be protected simply because they're holding a piece of metal or wood to protect themselves. Also, if you want there to be a drawback, make the energy cost of using these two-handed flails more than any other weapon available since you are twirling the thing, like 12 or 14 energy per hit. It should also be dependent on your melee skill with I think a higher threshold before you can start performing that wrap around trick in a regular basis sort of like how slings where you have to be really good at ranged combat to be able to hit your target most of the time. The rp reasoning could be only skilled warriors are encouraged to use them with no restrictions buying them necessarily. More expensive too so that'd be a decent riln sink as well. More drastically, you could make it an ability that Stormholdt warriors could learn at the entrance to the castle if you wanted to be exclusive with it or maybe a certain rank before they'll teach you the basics of how to perform that trick.

The same effects would apply if a player is using a shield so if a mob has a hammer or similar, the player would also suffer the minor damage. Or if let's say a fancy mob had a flail, they'd also be able to cause the shielded fighter some pain. Point is, right now, shields are the ultimate defense. Far better than metal armor. Imagine that. A leather shield is far better at causing you 0 damage per hit than a piece of plate armor at trying to do you the same.

Please tell me if all of this sounds ridiculous. I feel like I do have some fair points and obviously if people want they can add suggestions or whatever. But right now, I'ma start using a shield because there're 0 consequences for doing so.

[Gorth]

Sorry, but no.

Yes, sure, shields are the best defense, out of the three defense modes; being of course dodge, parry and shield block. Shields have a free reroll. They also get penalized hardly at all by carried encumbrance. However, they're shields. That's how it works. I agree that perhaps they can sometimes be a bit much, but shields are shields. I don't have much complaint, having played this game for two years with and against shields.

[Gorth]

I'll ad this post which I made some time ago, which has some ways to make the different forms of shield hold different uses. I'm not sure I agree with it all, any longer, but it could be a springboard if people have ideas on how to tune them downward; if, of course, that is what people want.

[Kismet]

I prefer fighting mobs with shields because it restricts access to the much more annoying off-hand skills they can get. I would much rather my attack be negated every once in a while than have my weapon grabbed and tossed across the room. Again...

[Gorth]

Kismet raises an interesting point which I hadn't considered.

The more powerful thing that shields can do is shield bash. I won't go to into it because I talk about it plenty already, but it is something to consider. Mobs without shields almost always have passive defenses; tumble, cloak parry, blade catch, et cetera.

[Lexx416]

Shields do also come with opportunity costs, and while they don't matter for everyone they do make a big difference for the people that do care. They add weight to your overall carried load, they take up a shoulder slot for storage, they're going to limit your damage output, and they take up a hand slot to be used. A heavier load limits where you can go in the world (and can also turn off some abilities) so for some people every pound really matters, especially if they can't use armor heavier than light. Eating a shoulder slot means you have fewer container options (and some items like rope can only be carried on the shoulder or in a big container). Lowered damage means you're potentially fighting for longer. And no free hand slots means it's trickier to carry around a light source in the dark (so you have to either juggle items, be a druid and use an ability slot for a light source, or use arcana).


While I think shields are very good (and underrated largely), Shield Use is also the lower of the trained defense skills at 14885 total ranks among active PCs while Dodge comes in at 58789 and even Acrobatics (for Graceful Dodge) beats it out at 17504 total ranks, and Artifice (for Cunning Dodge) at 15301 total ranks among active PCs.

There's definitely reasons to NOT use a shield, and shield bash being specifically quite good is really just something separate that should be addressed on it's own.

Edited to add:

I'm definitely in favor of some small percentage of crushing (and maybe hacking) getting through to the arm/hand of the person using the shield. That's a pretty reasonable ask that I've always thought made sense. I'd rather see the flail thing be some kind of specific ability tied to flails though personally.

[IndomitableHeart]

Just curious, but are shields lowering your damage output because it prevents you from using a weapon that gives you better damage that is two-handed, or is it specifically a penalty, e.g., any shield automatically drops your damage output by x amount?

[Lexx416]

Just curious, but are shields lowering your damage output because it prevents you from using a weapon that gives you better damage that is two-handed, or is it specifically a penalty, e.g., any shield automatically drops your damage output by x amount?

Sorry, I should have maybe been more specific. Shields limit you from using any two handed weapons which tend to have the highest damage factors in the game, and 1.5 handed weapons do less damage when you're only wielding them with one hand (so a spear and a shield, for example, means you do less damage with the shield held compared to if you had your other hand free).

[Candelori]

I use a shield in my everyday combat experience as a warrior of the Guardian class. It is effective, but I am by no means invincible, nor are the mobs I fight that wield shields of their own. Throughout my experience using a round shield while practicing and increasing my combat capabilities against all manner of foes, a consistent part of that experience has been treating wounds with unguents, bandaging bleeding wounds, and stopping forays early to seek healing. I have certainly felt safer with a shield than without one, which is why I never leave home without one. Despite that, I too have experienced serious wounds and multiple deaths.

There are tradeoffs to using a shield as others have written. There are some attacks that cannot be blocked with a shield and that my shield use skill does not help with at all. I might argue that dodge is a contender for the title of best defense due to its wide applicability though shield use may excel within a narrower scope.

The addition of methods to better deal with shield users would be welcome. An ability to hook and pull a shield away to make an automatic follow-up attack while the target is put off their balance, or the flail wrap as mentioned. The Roman pilum method, perhaps.

I will argue against the damage to shield arms when blocking. This will be of no real practical use against mobs while players who use shields will be penalized for doing so against any foe that uses a heavy weapon. A mob does not care that they have taken a paltry 3 damage to their left arm, and I do not see it ever being a desirable tactic to defeat mobs through compounding shield concussion arm wounds. To a player it will be a daily frustration being punished for utilizing a shield which already has its own investments, tradeoffs, and limitations. I will now need to spend the effort to get the wound healed before it compounds into a worse one despite having successfully rolled to avoid the attack. In a system like CLOK's where a shield roll was only used after a failed dodge it would be less frustrating, but even in that experience I found it very discouraging to regularly succeed in my preferred defense roll and still take damage. If this were a side effect of blocking a special attack such as Mighty Blow it would not be so bad, though I would still begrudge taking damage after I successfully rolled to avoid the attack. I would prefer not to want to avoid any mob wielding a heavy or crushing damage weapon simply because I utilize a shield for defense. It feels counterintuitive to discourage the heavier defense option against foes with the heavier attacks.

[Volinn]

, they take up a shoulder slot for storage,

Hopping in to once again plea for belt-worn bucklers someday.