Idle Musing: Keep making those numbers go up!

[Rias]

I was lurking in another discussion about another (non-MUD) game and people were boo-ing about level caps and brainstorming about some form of progression beyond the cap to allow that continuing sense of ... progress. This is one of those things that I don't think anyone has ever managed to satisfactorily solve in any game I've played or heard about, but I thought it would be fun to ponder anyway. Because I get it: I don't like reaching that ceiling either. It's a brief rush of excitement at having reached the final goal post, followed by a lingering frustrating sense of "What now?" I changed one of my COGG PC's goals around just so I'd feel like I still had something I was interested in working toward when I wasn't engaged in RP. It's kind of funny how we often complain about the grind, yet feel aimless and bored when there's nothing left to grind for. (Again: In the moments outside of RP. RP is great fun regardless of level or cappedness, but RP isn't always happening, and it's okay that sometimes we do just want to mindlessly grind a bit when we're not feeling up to RP.)

If it were technically possible to level past 100 in COGG, would it be fun just to see those numbers go up even though it did absolutely nothing? No additional skill points, ability points, etc. My guess is no, because people can already still gain experience at 100 and see that keep going up, it just doesn't increase their level further. It's not very exciting, but hey, it is a number one can still see go up forever and ever.

Is there something we could add on to post-cap levels that could feel at least slightly meaningful or useful in some way without ruining the overall mechanical balancing of the game for 100 levels? I've always been wary of open-ended eternal progression because that can make it extremely discouraging for new players, as well as veteran players starting new characters, knowing they'll likely never be able to catch up to the old crowd who've been grinding for years. Some kind of ever-increasing diminishing returns could potentially keep an "eternal progression" more reigned in though. At one point everyone's going to be comparing decimal differences. But decimal differences don't feel satisfying, so I feel like that would still lead back to disappointment and the "what now" feeling.

I should probably say before anyone starts getting ideas about additional progression options that I still don't want to open up everyone to skilling up anything they wanted as much as they want, even with excessive time sink requirements. I'm just not a fan of do-everything characters. I'd want to try and shoot for more depth, not more breadth.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I am NOT pivoting to focus on this type of thing, I just was in that previously-mentioned discussion and it made me think it would be fun to see what peoples' thoughts were about this kind of situation in COGG. And hey, maybe someone will have a really good idea that we can eventually use or springboard off of! I'm not particularly expecting that to happen because again, this is a problem since the beginning of games with progression systems that has yet to be satisfactorily solved, but I see no reason not to entertain the possibility even if it is slim.

Just for fun, I looked over all our capped characters to see what level they'd be if the levels did go past 100. Our top 5 highest levels for PCs are 119, 120, 122, 124, and 127! I was surprised by who our highest-level character is, though I probably shouldn't have been.

[Volinn]

I think that once more avenues for progression come along (Societies/Guilds/etc and merit, affinities, and similar systems to indicate mastery of your craft) then the post-cap blues won't be too much of an issue, but I've personally had less of a problem with it in COGG than in other games I've capped out in. It might be pretty cool to see your levels post-100, even though I admittedly took it easy after capping and stopped doing a lot of things that give experience in favor of just dropping into random bouts of RP stress-free. I... kind of thought I had more to contribute to the discussion, but I guess that's it for me.

[Rilulth]

I would just be happy with a little symbol next to my level every time I reached 100, Such as Level: 68* with an additional * next to my name each time I hit 100. I liked my lil' legendary dragons in Skyrim when I reset a skill, but I am easy to please.

Perhaps something to work towards. A shop you can visit every 25 levels over 100. Volinn has it right that once we have more societies and things to work towards, the "what now?" won't be as bad for most.

[Maina]

I am probably a bit of an odd duck in that watching the numbers go up doesn't really do a whole lot for me. Grinding has always been something I do when I'm not feeling sociable or there's nothing else to do, never my primary interest. So, I guess, take my thoughts with a grain of salt... but I don't think the issue is the numbers not going up anymore. The issue, when you hit level cap, is that there's nothing really to do anymore in those off moments when there's no RP or you aren't feeling up to it. At least, that's my opinion. And I think it holds true with all games that have level caps.

The thing that is typically my primary drive in games, and the thing that games - the ones that struggle with this issue less - have, and the thing both CLOK and COGG struggled with, is leaving a mark on the world in some shape or form.

That is, external progression rather than internal. Shaping the world rather than just getting more skilled.

Things like building things (farms are good here, though they seem to stop growing fairly quick and nobody else really interacts with them). Things like making crafts that you described and designed yourself that may outlast your character. Things like political roleplay where players can influence the setting, even if only locally or even temporarily (until the next election or what-have-you). Even something as simple as owning a house and furnishing it and decorating it with things and trophies that have personal significance and stories behind them.

Some way to mark the game and say that your character was here and mattered, even if only in some small way.

On CLOK/COGG, the only way to do this is with GM assistance. Which requires the time and effort of a very small team serving a growing playerbase.

I'm not entirely sure why that has been the case, but if the concern is players flooding the game with low-quality items and houses full of junk, why not tie it to post-100 progression? Have unique abilities (using a different type of ability point) at level 100 that unlock certain things like custom item crafting or player housing or greater storage limits (and implement storage limits for others) or even minor political roles (a level 100 character has to have been around for a while and must be pretty notable). Or have it be something you can spend XP on instead of riln, like spending 5000xp to make a custom item. By gating it to level 100 people, you give a use for all that excess XP while also having a form of vetting in that anyone who gets to level 100 has to have been around for a while without causing any major trouble.

If you wanted to be really bold, allow the spending of XP for these things at any level. The cost of slowing down progression is likely to make anyone think twice about using these things frivilously.

For me, at least, just seeing numbers go up for the sake of numbers going up wouldn't solve the problem. Like I said, I'm odd here. Seeing numbers go up even with mechanical benefit kind of bores me to tears when most of the time the only number going up is XP. The only solution that's really worked for me in other games is to give me something to do with those maxed out skills and stats. Or even things to do that don't require skills or stats at all. And yeah, like others have said, Societies and the like may well help with that "something to do" issue for those that fit into one of those boxes.

[Alicron]

To use the analogy of the carrot and the stick. Once someone has reached cap they have essentially, "caught the carrot". The best way I believe to fix this problem would be to offer an additional carrot beyond level 100.

Here are a few ideas:

- Offer the choice of a single unique ability at level 130. Make a few different abilities that would appeal to different play-styles and make sure they can only pick one.
- Offer the choice to improve a single skill by 20% at 130 or some other level above 100.
- Allow them to reset all their skills to 0 and in exchange raise all their skills caps by 100. (one time only and only on a certain number of skills)

[Kismet]

Your forgetting the true endgame content: Cosmetics.

There could be a system where after 100 your xp becomes Prestige Points(or something) you use to get skill points, apply those points to skills, and gain practice per normal. These wouldn't effect your rolls, but at certain thresholds the skills become Expert/Master/Grand-Master/Legendary. This might come with some minor benefits, but the main idea is that you could go around calling yourself a Master Swordsperson or Legendary Chef and have the title to back it up.

[Gorth]

I am very much a fan of Maina's suggestions. I know that my main hope when doing anything in this game is basically that it will matter in any sort of little way. I enjoy thinking about the future. As someone with a little mark on the world already, I'll say that that one little thing made the character feel much more interesting to me than the fact that it was like, level 75, or whatever, and capped on a couple skills.

Being able to spend XP at a sort of half-OOC shop thinggy would be neat to get a handful of restrings. At the point of being level 100, I feel like it's feasible to say, 'I rescued a princess and she awarded me this sword,' or something suitably dramatic.

I know that I am very worried in the numbers department not for level 100, but for when I have maxed out my combat on my combat character. Not that that's the only thing I can do, but because it's something to do in the meantime while nothing is happening, to feel like the character still progresses and grows. I don't think there needs to be anything, or much at least, statistical beyond level 100. Anything statistical should probably be GM granted. Just my half-dollar-coin.

[Frisbee]

I agree with most of what has been already suggested/mentioned above, and especially with Maina.

I'm going to insert a bit of my personal experiences here, with regards to shaping the world. Sorry if this gets rambly. My main has been a max-level character for a very, very long time. I can't remember my exact reaction to reaching that cap, though it wasn't much. On the other hand, I always feel pleased whenever I visit a certain Shadgard shop that this character helped furnish, even though the design ideas for said furniture weren't hers to begin with. Same goes for the steam conduits, and a large farm that she's been working on for years. I feel it would be good to focus on expanding opportunities for working towards goals that will have a broad impact IC, rather than somehow adjusting our own skills/abilities, which could end up being unbalanced anyway. Societies and such will inevitably help in that regard, I'm sure. So, even when someone is not in the mood for roleplaying, they would be able to grind and watch their town/organisation grow because of it, and not some character-specific numerical value.

[Squeak]

There's been several things I've come across over the years for after 100 progression. One game went super-saiyan (well, it was partially created) where you could "turn in" three level-capped characters for a special type of character with huge and amazing boosts or skills. Another went with Mastery Points, that had small, but tangible benefits, from using - each "level" after 100 provided 1 mastery point and each Mastery Skill/Ability cost X mastery points. I never capped in that game, so I can't attest to the benefits or what have you of using mastery points, but something similar could be used here. Perhaps tailors can spend MPs to be able to sew/knit bags with slightly higher capacity or add small pockets to things (Boots, for instance). Arcanists can have one that uses less chalk ("chalk" it up to being so familiarized with glyphs they can do it with the least amount of expenditure) or slight duration boosts to their glyphwork. For crafters, a series of special crafting recipes allowing them to make things few others can.

In the long run, these tend to be small gimmicks that don't really mean anything - I mean, sure, they'd be interesting to have or use, but they don't mean much overall. Maina's suggestion really rings a bell with me, as someone who has a crafting character, which would allow me to trade Exp for custom items for customers/self (I would gate something like this by skill progression and not level, i.e. at 400 skill, Chimaera can spend X amount of EXP to craft a special item for someone). But considering how few staff there is vs how many players, I could see something like this really getting out of hand for the first few months thereby limiting precious GM time for other Game-Wide events and things.

From a personal standpoint, I'd have to agree that Societies, Guilds, et cetera - when fully fleshed out - would allow a certain post-100 progression. Maybe an elected "Assistant Guild Master" position might open up, which allows small benefits (a private room in the Society that functions like an Inn Room), to those players who might be interested in taking a more leading role in the societies. Nothing game breaking, but a distinct, "I did that" sort of feeling that requires minimal GM intervention.

[artus]

While I love all of the suggestions here, I may have to slightly disagree with @squeak about player-leading societies or player in the leading roles, especially perminently or for a long time. May be this has to do with personal trauma as much as the potential possibility, but things like that tend to create ambition and, in turn, jealousy, metagaming and ic/ooc betrayal that can erupt really quickly. I've seen it done in many places and very few of them end well. I've even been a victim of one. It's unnerving to think of, even though I love to see that a thing in some form, but not the kind that hands power directly to players. At least no one has to be caught in between power battle and rp pressure because of it.