The topic has come up a few times in Discord, and I've kept meaning to post but only just getting round to it.
While everyone seems to agree that having scaling loot to help encourage tackling difficult targets, and to keep giving people encouragement to push upwards instead of just taking the route of least resistance to get riln, there seems to be a general sentiment that the combination of the riln diminishing drops and the loot rarity changes for lockboxes have instead just rendered combat in the 500+ bracket mostly an exercise in frustration.
Why?
In general, most late game zones have a higher chance of being on the really punishing end of a set of circumstances which you might be able to pull yourselves away from but will mean the end to a session. This is especially true for those who don't wear the heavier armors. That in itself isn't an issue, and combat in general is fun but at those levels it becomes more of an expensive hobby than a profession that you can live by. Between armor, weapon, clothing, food, morale and healing costs, the intake of riln becomes a trickle in comparison to options earlier levels where mobs are generally easier with more options. I don't think any of us expect warriors to make utter bank from a simple hunt, but there was a point in the game where I stopped bothering to do Long-Distance tasks because it was a lot more fun to go hunting and enjoy the mechanics and feel rewarded for it. Especially now at cap, or for those who aren't pushing skill up further, it can feel like a risky chore where mechanically, I'd be better off doing a LD task, or picking up most Crafting professions to 1 skill and using that to generate riln (Or a 100, depends how you want to take advantage of that).
Ideas on a solution?
I think in general, dangerous mobs/zones should drop more than they do right now, to the point that unless you're sky high above, they're still worthwhile to hunt. The Canim Camp is a good example. You can be way over the level of the spot, and still instantly die if you enter with bad timing. Same with Northwest Valeria. Another idea is making certain spots, especially those that cater more to group combat to not be effected by the drop scaling at all. Back to Northwest Valeria, despite being in the 400ish range if I remember rightly, it is hugely dangerous for nearly anyone unless they're just stealthing through due to the small quarters/spawnrate. It was massively frequented back in the day, but right now there would be zero point for even a mixed group to go. High level warriors won't get skill/xp, and they'll kill loot for everyone else so why bother? Sure, you could say fun and risk but if it is more dangerous to go there than say bring someone along to another zone, why isn't there more reward?
Other ideas could be making the scaling less drastic to start, before really plummeting off, or maybe, doing an average of those who killed the mob to generate loot?
I'm not sure, and I doubt there is a perfect solution but right now I'll just put my hand up and say it is pretty unfun to me.
Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
- Karjus
Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
Re: Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
I disagree with this, or rather, I think it almost sort of evens out. Heavier armor means lower combat defense rolls.This is especially true for those who don't wear the heavier armors.
Otherwise, I will, much as I already have, put my weight behind everything said here. It sucks that:
A: I have stopped at six-hundred Melee, because it pays better, but I get hurt more.
B: When I exit a six-hundred Melee area (Tanglewood), I have about five hundred to six hundred riln in medical debt (usually), an average of maybe thirty or forty riln for repairs, and similar. The riln from boxes, which I don't find very often, is on lock until I find someone who can open them, which sometimes costs me more than I get when they've become opened.
I don't have much to add other than I would like more money on high areas like this, especially stealth. I will flat out say that Bristbane is a terrible place and a frustrating and vaguely terrifying experience that rarely, if ever, gives me anything worth my time. Some of the mobs don't even drop things, for god's sake. Which is okay. I'm not playing for the money, but it means I'll almost never go to certain places without a very good set of thirty reasons.
Anyway, it's very early. I just figured I'd add my thoughts, here, before I forget to. I urge other people to post here and share how they feel. I don't know if we have any Nightblades this high (Six Hundred plus) but I imagine they don't experience what out in the open fighters do.
Re: Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
It's one thing when people cap their goal at like 500 range or something like me, which is pretty average. It ends up limiting money run to certain zones, unless you want to get a bunch of lower level players and let them loot the corpse. I actually discover to my delight that getting someone lower into an area where I'd normally dent super hard and have them loot the corpse generates based on the looter, which means it's much encouraged for combat vetorans to help rookies that way. For those who wish to solo past 500 though, you get less safety and more medical debt and you honestly need a group just as much as when you run in lower zones. Why? Because you solo and you risk dying yourself. Even two people die. I'm not sure about the ravaged wagon camp. But if it's like the old version buffed up to 11 then I can see a problem right then and there. It brings back the old memory of canim ruins waaay back where people would march in to kill and then we'd get 15 corpses piled up. Swarms kill and they kill hardcore. If they don't kill, a 25 crush damage to your left arm can leave slight fracture. 3 of those may give you minor or even moderate. This ends up leaving certain zones solely for suicide and never worth running in unless you get a massive group for it.
Aside from money gain, I'd add a little bit of toning down difficulty so deadly zones are at least more bearable, at least for smaller groups if not for soloists, because they need an army to run as of now. Brisbane is one. Tanglewood is one. And by god I'm not going to enter that wagon camp to find out and die.
Aside from money gain, I'd add a little bit of toning down difficulty so deadly zones are at least more bearable, at least for smaller groups if not for soloists, because they need an army to run as of now. Brisbane is one. Tanglewood is one. And by god I'm not going to enter that wagon camp to find out and die.
Re: Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
I guess from my view, last thing I'd want is to see the difficulty toned down. At that sort of level, zones are fun because they do push the danger and it is a mess. They're meant for the dedicated combatants, who pump all those skill points into it, and who enjoy it.
I personally hugely enjoy the risk, and think it is at a decent level. Maybe Infiltrators are still a bit too much, especially for their level, but I'm unsure how that would be tackled at this point, and would much rather see armor chink as a mechanic addressed rather than specifically targeting them and perhaps bladedancers, which would feel like a bandaid.
I personally hugely enjoy the risk, and think it is at a decent level. Maybe Infiltrators are still a bit too much, especially for their level, but I'm unsure how that would be tackled at this point, and would much rather see armor chink as a mechanic addressed rather than specifically targeting them and perhaps bladedancers, which would feel like a bandaid.
- Karjus
Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
Re: Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
I don't want to lower the deadliness of certain areas. There's more people/tools to utilize to ease up the agony a bit, or provide a reason to go out with a friend. More people, as an example, should hit up arcanists more often for a repeating warding glyph. Helps a ton with stealth crossbowmen/women and gives you more oppertunities to avoid/minimize damage. Or just buckle down and bring a friend along and have a party.
it's just that if I'm going through this much setup for a high combat skill zone, or having to wait on a hunting partner that I need to split loot on because said area is deadly, I'd like for my time and expenses to be rewarded more than they currently are. Right now, areas do not really consider the spike in difficulty for a lot of the 500+ combat zones that employ much more stealth, annoying combat maneuvers, and far more use of the crushing and puncturing damage type. Let alone the special bonuses a lot of later mobs have like maneuvers that knock down a lot on hit, or higher natural armor soaks that stack with armor. However, despite all that agony, I can go entire trips where I slowly whittle down 30 of those difficult encounters, and get 0-3 lockboxes.
Or I can just twink out, set my combat skill to 500 and farm far easier mobiles that don't have all those bonuses or armor and make out like a bandit. Nothing against people who are actually setting their goal to 500-600, but right now that's far more profitable. One might get more valuable returns from lockboxes in higher skill zones, but i can get a lot more boxes the other way, and have many more times to roll treasures that sell really well. For people who want to define themselves as combat specialists, they're actively being punished by game mechanics regarding loot, having to fight the most difficult enemies for far less reward.
I like some of the suggestions here regarding having some zones be considered group areas, and immune from the difficulty loot scaling. We all know why this change was put in, and Northwestern valeria wasn't the place being farm near endlessly by solo players. I've also noticed that after this change, combat groups suddenly stopped being a common thing. And I used to miss bantering with 5 other people during downtime or when things got rough in battle. Don't think there's a danger of people soloing these locations speedily.
For solo/duo zones, after 400 combat skill, loot scaling should include lesser/bonus scaling based on the loadout and maneuvers for a mob. So for an area that have mobiles that employ stealth tactics, bonus armor and a number of combat maneuvers that can be deployed at once, the zone should still be considered over the combatant's skill level even if they're 50-100 points over. And have a lesser reduction if they go a bit over by 150. On the other hand, if a high skill zone have mobiles that lack a lot of these things, like southern Tanglewood, then penalize the rewards even if you match the combat level. the ravaged wagon camp, as an example, should be rewarding far beyond the 700 melee/ranged limit due to how deadly that zone is with a combination of heavy weapons, stealth and maneuvers being used. But I would not even be rewarded at all at my current level, and someone who'd match it would be getting far more rewards doing southern tanglewood. They'd also be able to last longer in Southern tanglewood, where someone suffering in the wagon camp could take a physicker worthy fracture/wound on the first ambush. or be killed if they walk into a room with 3 canim waiting.
It'd just be great if we could return to people wanting to do more group content again without having to game around the loot system in some zones, and actually be rewarded rather than penalized for skilling up. These loot changes feel like they overreached the original issue of 700 melee characters fighting in 300 melee zones, and grouped up people who were just over by 50-150 points in far more dangerous areas. Probably redefining what counts as outskilling a zone should be looked at with more than just numbers, as it's possible to game the loot system based on mechanical differences in content rather than skills and adjust melee/ranged skill accordingly. And something like this really shouldn't also punish zones that should be grouping people together as a social activity like it currently seems to be doing.
it's just that if I'm going through this much setup for a high combat skill zone, or having to wait on a hunting partner that I need to split loot on because said area is deadly, I'd like for my time and expenses to be rewarded more than they currently are. Right now, areas do not really consider the spike in difficulty for a lot of the 500+ combat zones that employ much more stealth, annoying combat maneuvers, and far more use of the crushing and puncturing damage type. Let alone the special bonuses a lot of later mobs have like maneuvers that knock down a lot on hit, or higher natural armor soaks that stack with armor. However, despite all that agony, I can go entire trips where I slowly whittle down 30 of those difficult encounters, and get 0-3 lockboxes.
Or I can just twink out, set my combat skill to 500 and farm far easier mobiles that don't have all those bonuses or armor and make out like a bandit. Nothing against people who are actually setting their goal to 500-600, but right now that's far more profitable. One might get more valuable returns from lockboxes in higher skill zones, but i can get a lot more boxes the other way, and have many more times to roll treasures that sell really well. For people who want to define themselves as combat specialists, they're actively being punished by game mechanics regarding loot, having to fight the most difficult enemies for far less reward.
I like some of the suggestions here regarding having some zones be considered group areas, and immune from the difficulty loot scaling. We all know why this change was put in, and Northwestern valeria wasn't the place being farm near endlessly by solo players. I've also noticed that after this change, combat groups suddenly stopped being a common thing. And I used to miss bantering with 5 other people during downtime or when things got rough in battle. Don't think there's a danger of people soloing these locations speedily.
For solo/duo zones, after 400 combat skill, loot scaling should include lesser/bonus scaling based on the loadout and maneuvers for a mob. So for an area that have mobiles that employ stealth tactics, bonus armor and a number of combat maneuvers that can be deployed at once, the zone should still be considered over the combatant's skill level even if they're 50-100 points over. And have a lesser reduction if they go a bit over by 150. On the other hand, if a high skill zone have mobiles that lack a lot of these things, like southern Tanglewood, then penalize the rewards even if you match the combat level. the ravaged wagon camp, as an example, should be rewarding far beyond the 700 melee/ranged limit due to how deadly that zone is with a combination of heavy weapons, stealth and maneuvers being used. But I would not even be rewarded at all at my current level, and someone who'd match it would be getting far more rewards doing southern tanglewood. They'd also be able to last longer in Southern tanglewood, where someone suffering in the wagon camp could take a physicker worthy fracture/wound on the first ambush. or be killed if they walk into a room with 3 canim waiting.
It'd just be great if we could return to people wanting to do more group content again without having to game around the loot system in some zones, and actually be rewarded rather than penalized for skilling up. These loot changes feel like they overreached the original issue of 700 melee characters fighting in 300 melee zones, and grouped up people who were just over by 50-150 points in far more dangerous areas. Probably redefining what counts as outskilling a zone should be looked at with more than just numbers, as it's possible to game the loot system based on mechanical differences in content rather than skills and adjust melee/ranged skill accordingly. And something like this really shouldn't also punish zones that should be grouping people together as a social activity like it currently seems to be doing.
Re: Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
I notice there's been an update to loot gain for higher skilled combatants, but I haven't had a chance to log in and test it yet and can't comment on its effects. Maybe it will drastically effect the drop rate of loot boxes? So I'll focus on something else for now: my issue lies in the danger levels of certain zones in relation to their loot drops - in a similar vein as was mentioned by Karjus. Northwest Valeria in specific is one of my favorite zones in the game to just go wild with a group of people - things are almost always guaranteed to go awry and I absolutely love it. It's really a massive shame that me going there means nobody gets to... really enjoy the fruits of their labor, I guess? There's a certain higher level mob in Tanglewood that is more difficult to handle than the rest and while I play carefully when I solo them, there's nothing quite like the dread that comes with wondering when an infiltrator will hop out of nowhere and impale one of your team mates. I was unaware that the Canim Camp's loot gains were tanked at capped melee until recently, but it's got a very similar sense of panic when you stumble into a group of 3-5 hidden fur-covered turds. The area below Bristbane is another possible case for this, though it's not as deadly in the 'you're about to get your limbs abruptly ripped off' sense.
Guess what I'm trying to say is that there should probably be an exception/flag for certain zones that allows standard loot drops across the board. I really cannot stress enough how much I love challenging and dangerous combat areas such as these, and wish I could hop into the fire more often without ruining my fellow companion's experiences (it's still fun, of course, but money! Money!).
I'd like to also point out that one of my personal reasons for not hunting much anymore is the tedious nature of getting a sword sharpened. Sure, I'll use a polehammer now and then when I know I just don't want to deal with it, but it's not very true to my character to do so. It's a pretty integral part of who he is: he considers himself a swordsman more than an adventurer/soldier/goofball/jerk/whatever. The annealing and tempering process is just incredibly time consuming and demoralizing (for me, at least). The process for repairing other items is completely fine and has lead to some decent RP even, but it often feels like I'm just stuck in the forge waiting for a dull item to heat up and cool down while nobody really wants to be there when it comes to grinding. Goofy side rant maybe and absolutely unrelated, but it ties into my overall hunting experience so I thought I'd spew it out. Don't mind me!
Guess what I'm trying to say is that there should probably be an exception/flag for certain zones that allows standard loot drops across the board. I really cannot stress enough how much I love challenging and dangerous combat areas such as these, and wish I could hop into the fire more often without ruining my fellow companion's experiences (it's still fun, of course, but money! Money!).
I'd like to also point out that one of my personal reasons for not hunting much anymore is the tedious nature of getting a sword sharpened. Sure, I'll use a polehammer now and then when I know I just don't want to deal with it, but it's not very true to my character to do so. It's a pretty integral part of who he is: he considers himself a swordsman more than an adventurer/soldier/goofball/jerk/whatever. The annealing and tempering process is just incredibly time consuming and demoralizing (for me, at least). The process for repairing other items is completely fine and has lead to some decent RP even, but it often feels like I'm just stuck in the forge waiting for a dull item to heat up and cool down while nobody really wants to be there when it comes to grinding. Goofy side rant maybe and absolutely unrelated, but it ties into my overall hunting experience so I thought I'd spew it out. Don't mind me!
Re: Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
There are some good points and suggestions here, thanks for providing them! First off, per the changelog:
- The skill range that affects the rewards from looting defeated mobs has been adjusted to be a little more lenient with characters of skill higher than the mob's, providing a little more wiggle room in effective loot skill ranges.
- Looting defeated mobs now averages out the combat rating of all participants who contributed to the mob's defeat and does some generous rounding to be more forgiving of groups containing the occasional helpful much-higher-skilled participant.
The first update should mean someone at 700 skill could hunt all of Tanglewood and not be penalized at all, for example. The second should make it more viable for a higher-skill character to join a lower-skill group and help out without feeling like they're tanking the loot.
One butterfly that has been tempting me lately is adding an automated way to determine loot reward adjustments based on a mob's various factors. This could extend to experience rewards too, or perhaps factor into the combat challenge calculation so areas of lower skill might still be viable to higher-skill characters because the mobs are considered extra dangerous despite not having higher skill. I'd love to hear ideas for specific things to factor in, such as:
- Skills
- Spawn rate
- Damage factor of weapons/attacks
- Damage reduction (both armor and natural)
- Maximum energy
- Highest hit location hitpoints
- Maneuvers/spells used (both offense and defense)
- Tactics set
It would take a lot of tweaking, but I think it'd be better than trying to manually assess and set adjustments for every single mob. Of course, there could also be a custom modifier as well for the occasional mob that might warrant it for whatever reason, perhaps lore reasons or things the automated system couldn't easily account for.
I would prefer to make existing dangerous areas more tempting to try and risk/tackle over making them less dangerous. Some people want that higher risk and challenge area, that crazy zone with insane spawn rates or exceptionally tough mobs, as an obstacle to work on overcoming (and ideally get rewarded for the extra effort/risk). Despite never having personally participated in the forays into Valeria (on the PC side ...) I miss hearing about them and how much fun people had with them.
On the other hand, I also think we need more areas for more variety and options. I don't think we need skill ranges where the only option is going into an extra-dangerous swarmy death zone. I've needed a break from what I'm currently tied up with, so maybe I'll do a brief content rush. There are several areas just twiddling their thumbs waiting to be imported.
And thinking of spawn rates, should we look at possibly turning down how much it scales with additional PCs? I don't want grouping for a particularly busy area to actually make things worse because more people means higher spawn rate and then the area is just ridiculously swarmy. As much as I've enjoyed the many ill-fated expeditions into the pit of horrors that is the Bristbane Caverns ... Oh, and I should probably look at despawning extra spawns down to the area's default cap once the PCs have left. That's been on the list for a while.
- The skill range that affects the rewards from looting defeated mobs has been adjusted to be a little more lenient with characters of skill higher than the mob's, providing a little more wiggle room in effective loot skill ranges.
- Looting defeated mobs now averages out the combat rating of all participants who contributed to the mob's defeat and does some generous rounding to be more forgiving of groups containing the occasional helpful much-higher-skilled participant.
The first update should mean someone at 700 skill could hunt all of Tanglewood and not be penalized at all, for example. The second should make it more viable for a higher-skill character to join a lower-skill group and help out without feeling like they're tanking the loot.
One butterfly that has been tempting me lately is adding an automated way to determine loot reward adjustments based on a mob's various factors. This could extend to experience rewards too, or perhaps factor into the combat challenge calculation so areas of lower skill might still be viable to higher-skill characters because the mobs are considered extra dangerous despite not having higher skill. I'd love to hear ideas for specific things to factor in, such as:
- Skills
- Spawn rate
- Damage factor of weapons/attacks
- Damage reduction (both armor and natural)
- Maximum energy
- Highest hit location hitpoints
- Maneuvers/spells used (both offense and defense)
- Tactics set
It would take a lot of tweaking, but I think it'd be better than trying to manually assess and set adjustments for every single mob. Of course, there could also be a custom modifier as well for the occasional mob that might warrant it for whatever reason, perhaps lore reasons or things the automated system couldn't easily account for.
I would prefer to make existing dangerous areas more tempting to try and risk/tackle over making them less dangerous. Some people want that higher risk and challenge area, that crazy zone with insane spawn rates or exceptionally tough mobs, as an obstacle to work on overcoming (and ideally get rewarded for the extra effort/risk). Despite never having personally participated in the forays into Valeria (on the PC side ...) I miss hearing about them and how much fun people had with them.
On the other hand, I also think we need more areas for more variety and options. I don't think we need skill ranges where the only option is going into an extra-dangerous swarmy death zone. I've needed a break from what I'm currently tied up with, so maybe I'll do a brief content rush. There are several areas just twiddling their thumbs waiting to be imported.
And thinking of spawn rates, should we look at possibly turning down how much it scales with additional PCs? I don't want grouping for a particularly busy area to actually make things worse because more people means higher spawn rate and then the area is just ridiculously swarmy. As much as I've enjoyed the many ill-fated expeditions into the pit of horrors that is the Bristbane Caverns ... Oh, and I should probably look at despawning extra spawns down to the area's default cap once the PCs have left. That's been on the list for a while.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
<Fellborn> NO
Re: Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
Thanks a ton for the changes.
First of all, despawning mobs back to base level would be huge for certain zones and definitely something I think would help with certain zones potential difficulty spikes (*cough* Canim Camp *cough*). Should likely have a timer though, and perhaps a gradual decline instead of just automatic. The way zones are set can lead to people dipping in/out and just because they do shouldn't make it automatically easier for a brief period of time.
Your dangers list seems pretty decent, though without knowing the ins/outs of systems, I'd definitely look at creature type as well. IE, Incorporeal mobs should likely count higher than corporeal. Flying mobs should likely be more dangerous than walking. Perhaps those are otherwise handled with your listed criteria however.
One further thought in this, is allowing a location modifier. With ice added in, and more locations requiring climbing and such, the difficulty in reaching a place and actually having to manage the environment that you're at can be a huge deal. Admittedly, most high-level zones aren't that dangerous to get to but some are, looking at you Bristbane.
As for extra spawns, I'm a bit torn. I think it would help with people grouping up more to tackle difficult areas, but I also feel like a lot of zones currently work fine as it is.
First of all, despawning mobs back to base level would be huge for certain zones and definitely something I think would help with certain zones potential difficulty spikes (*cough* Canim Camp *cough*). Should likely have a timer though, and perhaps a gradual decline instead of just automatic. The way zones are set can lead to people dipping in/out and just because they do shouldn't make it automatically easier for a brief period of time.
Your dangers list seems pretty decent, though without knowing the ins/outs of systems, I'd definitely look at creature type as well. IE, Incorporeal mobs should likely count higher than corporeal. Flying mobs should likely be more dangerous than walking. Perhaps those are otherwise handled with your listed criteria however.
One further thought in this, is allowing a location modifier. With ice added in, and more locations requiring climbing and such, the difficulty in reaching a place and actually having to manage the environment that you're at can be a huge deal. Admittedly, most high-level zones aren't that dangerous to get to but some are, looking at you Bristbane.
As for extra spawns, I'm a bit torn. I think it would help with people grouping up more to tackle difficult areas, but I also feel like a lot of zones currently work fine as it is.
- Karjus
Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
Re: Combat: Late Game Risk vs Reward
Just chiming in to mention that a lot of this also applies to non-warriors who are at what is "high level" for a non-warrior. 400 for most of us, since we simply can't deal with mobs that have a ton of combat abilities when we don't.
I really like the idea of dynamic mob rewards. It might also be nice if a player's amount of combat abilities factored in as well? Though that would probably make it untenably difficult to calculate. It'd be nice if I could fight lower level groups due to the Ability difference without over-rewarding a Warrior for fighting lower level mobs that have lots of abilities that they can handle.
Maybe a class-based modifier to loot drops? That is, a Physicker fighting solo gets a huge boost to drops due to having no combat ability access. A bard or warlock gets a middling bonus. Nightblade might take a penalty, to be honest, since they can easily solo enemies much higher than themselves from a very early level. When the ability tree update comes out, the modifier could be listed on the class node.
I really like the idea of dynamic mob rewards. It might also be nice if a player's amount of combat abilities factored in as well? Though that would probably make it untenably difficult to calculate. It'd be nice if I could fight lower level groups due to the Ability difference without over-rewarding a Warrior for fighting lower level mobs that have lots of abilities that they can handle.
Maybe a class-based modifier to loot drops? That is, a Physicker fighting solo gets a huge boost to drops due to having no combat ability access. A bard or warlock gets a middling bonus. Nightblade might take a penalty, to be honest, since they can easily solo enemies much higher than themselves from a very early level. When the ability tree update comes out, the modifier could be listed on the class node.