Acknowledging the history of CLOK

[Dennis]

Does this mean I don't have to call it The Other Game anymore? As someone with a strong attachment to the original CLOK history, I see this as a great thing. At the same time, I'm happy to let my old characters live on as memories or fragments of histories in the past as rumors of the past. I had my fun as a stereotypical sorcerer and some fun gimmick characters, like the guy with four revolvers, geomancer miners, and double-shield using sorcerers. I'll miss them all, and remember their histories fondly.



It sounds like you've got an outline for the future, but also your work cut out for you. With regards to this and other recent posts, I thought it was great you were being really open about the upcoming changes and welcoming criticism and ideas. I suppose the only thing is I hope you find this enjoyable to do! While passion may overtake you from time to time, the myriad ideas including blending these two worlds sounds like a marathon and not a sprint. I look forward to seeing what changes in implementations happen, especially with the changes coming to arcanists as you implement ideas in the new veins of thought lanced with historical elemancy.

Of course, it comes with the question to what extent are you considering bringing elemanctic concepts into COGG? As mentioned by Maina you seem to have some hesitancy in this regard.

Considerations:

I think it's interesting that Westbrook is coming back as Spider Creek. There are a few rumors about Westbrook that should be adjusted with the merging of the lore.

With the Shadgard and Corvite conflict being an older chapter in history brought back, will we be seeing remnants of the conflict showing up as historical items? That would be cool. It seems like this conflict has been dialed down a lot - will we still be seeing this as a core conflict, or will it sit as a background activity?

I remember that in CLOK, there was a period of time where PCs were placed in administrative positions of Tse Gaiyan and Mistral. Will these decisions be redacted for these characters here in COGG?

With the return of the Coalition Headquarters and associated, will the associated amenities be returning? E.G. the forestry sector, private mines, etc. They were nice amenities that people took great offense to.

Will the Artisans Guild be returning in the format we're familiar with? How will that interact with the more open-world style of skillgains planned with the ability expansions?

You mentioned the hunting of thaumaturges and the loss of the presence of those with inner-light. Will people who are considering bringing their monks or templars back contend with the loss of these features? I figured I'd ask for them so no one has to assume or guess.

With guilds being in a drastically different place than it was and Tse Gaiyan coming back in the form of a society, will we still see a breakdown between Utasa/Udemi? Over the years I saw the guild reshaped four times, each guru in charge leading it in a dramatically different ideology or format. I think the current helpfile or information is pretty clear about their goals but what's a typical day in the life of someone associated with this society? On that note, it'd be interesting to know what your "Typical day in the life of" for most society members are.

How do you see this change affecting the culture of our COGGverse as we know it? Will we import old grudges and enemies into the current world? I'm cautious about these staining the world.

Lastly, if there are going to be any changes committed as far as reputation, consequences, etc, I wish that the team will take the time to individually notify the players of these changes, and give the players the opportunity to accept or respond to the proposed punitive measures. Especially if it's a change caused by the new lore import.

[Karjus]

Mixed thoughts.

In regards to the history of Clok and how it is more intermingled with Cogg's, I'd have preferred to have learned of specifics ingame and through actual events. By this, I don't mean repeats of similar events that happened in Clok but events/lore/info in the world for everyone to discover that both helped tie the two worlds together more but also helped people unfamiliar with Clok. Learning that Caer Ioan and Corvus are one and the same, would have been great. Things could have then been tailored around the present world of Cogg, and helped with any glaring issues as you'd have personally taken care of it before. You lament the lack of significant events in Cogg, then spoil what could have been awesome and really drawing to some people. A post, with a nod towards the fact that it was more intermingled than we thought and a drive ingame to reflect that could have been really neat.

So, I'm not a fan of your approach to it (though I do think saying no significant events is a slap in the face to people who have tried to drive events in game, especially before Clok was shut down or those who choose Cogg over Clok), but I can understand how it gives a wealth of things you've already technically worked on and can retrofit which sounds like is a big deal to you.

I however, definitely am not a fan of allowing people to play their old characters. I can perhaps understand it for people who have been playing them in a variation long before this though I'd still prefer an equal slate for everyone once factions/socities and such start to come out instead of people relying on things that happened in Clok but people who saw this announcement and just decided to roll up their old characters now to try and "claim" them? If the character and persona was that important to them, they'd be playing them already and making new stories and helping get things going in Cogg.

I think that is likely my biggest issue with this, beyond the initial slap for the people who have been around for ages having to say "This isn't Clok" to everyone who has said "But it isn't like that in Clok" and had to deal with that continual pain. That always felt like a detriment in growing from a niche community to a larger one and while the first part of this could be really cool and interesting for everyone, I fail to see how the second part is beneficial to anyone really. Once again, if people liked that character that much, they'd be playing them or a variation.

[Navi]

I can understand where you’re coming from Karjus. I personally don’t have any fears about players bringing old characters back. It’s not like they’ll suddenly be level 100s with all their old abilities and such. Unless I misunderstood something.
All of mine are in the past for better or worse. I was tempted to try and bring back some of mine exactly how they were. I kind of did bring them along but treated them like alternate reality versions. At the same time, saying that someone who wants to play an old character in this newly merged world is less of a participant because they didn’t do so from the beginning is a slap in the face to those players who wanted to respect the spirit of the new project and attempt new characters.
In regard to the straight-forward announcement, I’m appreciative. It might have been cool for certain things to be revealed as parts of CLOK’s world to be welcomed to COGG’s world, but I feel like that would make it difficult to consolidate new experiences with old ones. Kind of like a remake of an old movie being amazing to people who have never seen the original, but difficult to enjoy for those who grew up with it. Instead of being stuck in the past, we can all move forward from a singular point. This is how I’m choosing to view it anyway. Hopefully it helps.
I’m also not around that much these days, so those nifty reveals might never even reach me. That’s another reason why I’m grateful for the posts made on here about new areas and events. Should I be punished for not spending 24/7 logged in? I don’t think so, but others may disagree. I’m willing to take the lumps as they come though.
Post edit:
To your first point about the reveals in game via lore items, there's nothing stopping that from still being a thing. It's just now out of character info. Maybe items will still worm their way into game. Rumors have been utilized pretty well thus far, and seem primed for just this circumstance.

[Lexx416]

While I enjoy reminiscing about fond memories in CLOK, and there's nostalgia there for me, I'm split on this. There's parts of this that I'm ambivalent towards, there's parts of this that I dislike, and there isn't really much I like about it aside from it making Rias' life easier (and making the game, overall, more fun for him). I don't have much of a horse in this race, because this change isn't likely to have much of an impact on my character, and I have no plans to bring back any PCs I played in CLOK.

One of the reasons I was excited for COGG and the other project prior to this one that I previously messed around on, was the clean slate aspect. As much as I loved the game, there was a fair bit of toxicity throughout the community from relatively early on, that only seemed to get worse as time went on. So I was pretty relieved at the idea of a new game, with a new start, without those deeply entrenched conflicts that (not infrequently) bled from IC to OOC. If the CLOK BBS was up, you could go back as far as when I played Kian (years ago) to see examples of people just kind of being nasty to each other (including myself at times, more than I'd like to admit) either passive aggressively or directly. And given how much of that conflict seemed to blur the lines between people and IC organizations and the players behind them, I worry about people bringing too much baggage with them when all of these past CLOK institutions and events comes back in an official, non-separate-timeline manner. It's one of the reasons I wasn't in favor of the Claw of Shar returning, and was pretty happy with the idea that the Corvus Outpost wasn't a thing here.

I also worry a bit about folks who were once established in known societies bringing those "established" PCs back, and using that as a way to throw around social clout. If Udemi McCoolGuy comes up and tells all of these stories about being this Tse Gaiyan Expert, and essentially gets a "head start", that feels like it discourages me from really caring about the Tse Gaiyan as an option when societies are rolled out. Is that much different from 3 or 5 years down the road when a totally new player shows up, and maybe feels that same way? Maybe not, I dunno. But I know it doesn't sit great with me.

I'd have also much preferred for these revelations to come up more organically whenever possible, like Karjus mentioned. Even if I don't really like the idea of "The Corvus Outpost was Caer Ioan all along!", it would have been pretty cool for that to be an IC plot twist, to be discovered in game for the people who wanted to invest in that sort of plot line.

I don't really have much else to say on the subject. Much like the Generalized Ability thing, it's hard for me to comment on it without seeing it in action, and it's a bit harder for me to stay invested in my characters, without knowing if these changes will actually be better for me (or at least, not worse). But genuinely, if it makes it easier for Rias to get excited about the game, then that's really great, and probably for the best. Sometimes it just sucks to see the game change so drastically from what it was at the inception, much in the same way it was kind of a disappointment for me to go from Somnium to COGG (even if I understand why the changes that happened happened).

[Verel]

SO since someone already asked about revolvers, are you thinking about bringing back carbines/muskets? They were one-shot guns that took a relative long time to load and weren't always the best for action in that kind of a way. But man, do I remember and have some great memories of at least one of my CLOK characters using them to awesome effect at times and involving some decent rp in certain situations. Also, they'd be good hunting weapons as well.

Obviously not trying to beat a dead horse, but it does intrigue me as a general rule to advance the current tech at least a little further by lengthening the barrel of the smooth-bore piece and putting in a larger stock. Heck, what I was thinking was maybe something pneumatic with a bigger tank that would make it heavier and would weigh more so that those carrying them must then choose what they'd like to carry with them in order to have something like that without encumbering them. Or perhaps even take up a shoulder slot so that you have enough steam in the tank for something like that.

I do think regardless that it should be a weapon including a strap for at least one of the shoulders so you'd have to forgo your larger weapons regardless of whether you're using a flintlock or pneumatic version. To be clear, I'm only asking because someone already asked about revolvers. Otherwise I wouldn't dare do so since admittedly I've been playing that harp for what feels like years in great expectation to see those kinds of Clok items return.

And yes, admittedly, I realize this may be tons of work to balance all that and everything.

[Vivalas]

Gonna put what I put in discord, but slightly better formatted:

As someone who never played CLOK but found COGG on the mud subreddit and who has been enjoying it for a bit, I don't have much to add, but I do echo the concerns of @Agelity @Karjus @Squeak in that, part of the relief of finding COGG was finding it to also be relatively new. A lot of roleplay muds I bounce off of because things can get a bit.. cliquey at times when you're new and there's so much history. I found having COGG be separate from whatever that pass interaction was to be a relief of sorts. But at the same time I think the community and roleplay has generally been pretty open and I've felt pretty good at the random scenes I slip into so I don't think that's too huge of a problem, really, just something to note I guess. basically the change from "everything is somewhat still new and there's a place to write history" to "now there's this whole body of lore and past player RP / events that I have no clue about", but also that can also make sense from an IC standpoint, so it's whatever.

In regards to this, Serity made a good point on the Discord that Lexx also touched on, in that, "keep in mind that this still would end up the case for new COGG players 10 years down the line from today." And I agree with that. I suppose being a new player now not wanting to be intimidated by all the past events isn't necessarily something that will be limited to this era of COGG and will always probably affect new players in any persistent roleplaying experience that goes on for any length of time, so it's a point that I think bears consideration, but at the same time the longer anyone plays, myself included, the more of the guilt of that sort of "previous experience" becomes shared.

[Squeak]

Gonna put what I put in discord, but slightly better formatted:

As someone who never played CLOK but found COGG on the mud subreddit and who has been enjoying it for a bit, I don't have much to add, but I do echo the concerns of @Agelity @Karjus @Squeak in that, part of the relief of finding COGG was finding it to also be relatively new. A lot of roleplay muds I bounce off of because things can get a bit.. cliquey at times when you're new and there's so much history. I found having COGG be separate from whatever that pass interaction was to be a relief of sorts. But at the same time I think the community and roleplay has generally been pretty open and I've felt pretty good at the random scenes I slip into so I don't think that's too huge of a problem, really, just something to note I guess. basically the change from "everything is somewhat still new and there's a place to write history" to "now there's this whole body of lore and past player RP / events that I have no clue about", but also that can also make sense from an IC standpoint, so it's whatever.

In regards to this, Serity made a good point on the Discord that Lexx also touched on, in that, "keep in mind that this still would end up the case for new COGG players 10 years down the line from today." And I agree with that. I suppose being a new player now not wanting to be intimidated by all the past events isn't necessarily something that will be limited to this era of COGG and will always probably affect new players in any persistent roleplaying experience that goes on for any length of time, so it's a point that I think bears consideration, but at the same time the longer anyone plays, myself included, the more of the guilt of that sort of "previous experience" becomes shared.

For reference: (my post from Discord) One of the things that boggles my mind, is the constant, -constant-, lamentation of what used to be. Having the lore integrated into the current game is a plus - it expands the foundation for the game. Crying over spilled milk, looking back instead of forward, will only serve to hurt the game in the long run, I feel.

Clearing up a few things - I love how so many people ruminate on their past characters and abilities. It's heart-warming that CLOK meant so much to so many people through it's ups and downs. I get it - I still talk fondly about another game I used to play, but I believe that instead of rebuilding all the old skills and abilities, community suggestions of NEW and IMPROVED abilities, perhaps referencing these old abilities lore-wise, would be a better course of action to breathe new life yet still maintaining the feel of things.

In regards to Serity and Lexx's comments (quoted above) while yes, new players in several years will have similar experiences, all of the information SHOULD BE in COGG by that point, and not a vague reference to a previous iteration of the game where it's unknown if it's actually appropriate to mention.

[Karjus]

I also worry a bit about folks who were once established in known societies bringing those "established" PCs back, and using that as a way to throw around social clout. If Udemi McCoolGuy comes up and tells all of these stories about being this Tse Gaiyan Expert, and essentially gets a "head start", that feels like it discourages me from really caring about the Tse Gaiyan as an option when societies are rolled out. Is that much different from 3 or 5 years down the road when a totally new player shows up, and maybe feels that same way? Maybe not, I dunno. But I know it doesn't sit great with me.

Maybe I'm just too pessimistic, but I can see it happening. Which just makes that aspect of the change feel like an accepted "backstory" because they came from Clok, but if it was anyone else doing it then it would be flagged up immediately. And while artificially, no, it won't be different for a new player when they show up that much further down the road it feels too much like preorder DLC/grandfathered stuff to me.

[Marcuson]

I think Karjus and Lexx both raise valid considerations. I never got the sense that COGG felt hollow -- in fact, it was refreshing to have a clean slate, but perhaps that's because I'm not one to pine after "the good old days". I have no desire to revisit any characters I played in CLOK. That said, if other players want to bring back their PCs, then great -- I hope those are handled thoughtfully on a case-by-base basis.

I'm skeptical that bringing in CLOK's history will make COGG feel more meaningful; meaning is something we can create independently. However, there are large parts of CLOK worth salvaging because it will save time, preserve something well-made, or provide some technical advantage -- and it's those parts that I want to feel most hopeful about. Maina best sums that up:

I am always excited to see you excited to work on the game, and the past few major changes that have been announced definitely sound like they've made you more excited. I just hope that the things that make you excited from CLOK make their way here while the things that frustrated you or made things a chore and eventually led to you leaving get left behind where they belong, rather than brought forward because of a feeling that it has to be all or nothing.

COGG is a passion project for the people who contribute to it, and it's vital to keep those fires stoked. I'd like to contribute to that.

[Spidercat]

I am misreading the time scale wrong on the first post. What's generally considered the cutoff point history wise? I don't quite remember when COGG was considered fully active for play, and the line about being an advisor for CLOK suggests it's a bit more time after that.