Discussion about the Warrior Experience

[Verel]

Woo boy. I didn't think there'd be so much contention with this topic.

I'm fine with whatever happens as long as tasks will eventually be involved. Like, I wanna go out as a warrior of some sort and feel like I was personally assigned a challenge to accomplish. It was so satisfying for me to go out there to a relatively unfamiliar area, wait for the target to appear, then fight to the death and be payed to do it.

As far as warriors being the central focus, I am honestly not sure really. I just didn't think there'd be so much frustration in that area of things.

I'd like you all to keep in mind that this is a developing game. Things will change and grow as the years go by. Chances are that in a few years from now, it won't be the same game that it is now. Hopefully, it will be for the better and we'll all be happy. I sure am right now and not all of my characters are strictly warriors although they do to some extent know how to swing a mace at the very least. It comes with the territory when you play a game set in the Lost lands which is a dangerous place.

I don't have the solutions or even really that many ideas. There're things I personally would like but I'm not going to give my opinions here as I doubt it'd help much on that front. I just hope that we can all come to like what we do get and realize that this is a growing world with it's own differences.

[Gorth]

No one's crying for more content. Exageration is the minimum descriptor of that.

The whole game needs padding out. But just because something has content doesn't mean it's enjoyable all of the time or profitable all the time. Which is perfectly fine! This is just meant for discussion.

As stated: we wait for fracture healers, therapy healers, crafters to repair if we don't dump skill points to do it ourselves, technically people to gather materials if we don't do it ourselves, for crafters to make the gear we use if we don't dump skill points to do it ourselves, et cetera.

It's not necessarily a problem, it just is what it is. And like I said, it doesn't need to be fun or profitable all of the time, but in my experience, hardcore warriors tend not to get different RP as easily, because we bind ourselves to being a Warrior and without other unrelated skills, sometimes it's hard to find crowds.

Obviously everyone has differing experiences, but these are my eight riln. I think warrior-life is alright, right now. But it's just alright. It's not particularly high profile, most of the time, and often doesn't get you much of anywhere RP-wise unless you aggressively throw yourself at people for things other than being a Warrior, or you get mobs aggressively thrown at you and basically only interat with warriors and maybe your deticated repairer/crafters, if you're lucky enough to find someone who you strike a good repor with.

[Ezrynon]

Yeah, I didn't really mean to start a fire. I tend to come off that way, and if I had I'm sorry. The game is what it is, and I'll probably just adapt what I'd want to do, with what is. I just, want to contribute my voice to things when it's asked for, and this isn't just probably asked for. And, ultimately it's not like I can't just leave and play somewhere else if I don't like it.

[Navi]

You know, that's a really good point I hadn't considered. There is certainly quite a lot that the roles in COGG do to support warriors and other focused combatants. However, they don't really give much back than the occasional repair or riln dump when purchasing upgrades to equipment. A single set of equipment can last someone their entire play through. It might be cool for something to really hammer home the idea that something other than cold blooded killers are coming out of Stormholdt. Tasks in the guardhouses for players to take watch would be great. It would provide opportunities for players to interact in a setting that is combat focused, but not active. There aren't many situations for that currently.

[Ezrynon]

It might be cool for something to really hammer home the idea that something other than cold blooded killers are coming out of Stormholdt. Tasks in the guardhouses for players to take watch would be great. It would provide opportunities for players to interact in a setting that is combat focused, but not active. There aren't many situations for that currently.

I think this post somehow got what I was trying to get to a little I think. But this quote jumped out at me, and maybe this is just my headcannon.

But, A task where a person receives it and goes to a guard tower, maybe they get word that highwayman have spawned, they can then ride out, follow the roads, do active patrols while bandits or something are spawned out on roads and can walk up and down them, or maybe a pack of infested start increasing in higher areas, and they may have to work together , or maybe have things spawn within the canyon of Shadgard easy things that low level combatants could take on, make them spread out enough or in a location where newbie players wouldn't get ganked but is also accessible for newbie warriors through higher skill warriors can do them. Low level contract, contracts for beginners, the challenges may be different for each contract. It also could put a little bit of danger that warriors or other combatants may have to do. This idea may be too difficult to implament, but I think it would maybe solve some of the problems. Again, just some head cannon firing.

[Ephemeralis]

Got a few suggestions to try and help with this:

• Combat-related tasks (such as kill 20 Dusklamp infested) have a small chance to spawn an 'elite' mob of that type with increased difficulty relative to the task-getter's skills when working on said tasks. These "elite" mobs have the potential to drop lockboxes with increased Loot Luck for the area, drop more riln, and grant considerably more practice.
• Killing a certain number of "elite" mobs increases a tracked value, which Stormholdt then uses to offer ringleader or apex contracts. These contracts are group content - taking the task triggers a flag which when the person with the task enters a zone, causes a certain number of kills in said zone to bring a special ringleader or apex mob out of hiding. These apex mobs are a LOT stronger than normal and may have advanced movesets compared to normal, and they should be generally tailored to require multiple people to kill. Naturally, the rewards for them are considerable - not only would the contracts give substantial amount of riln (to be split across all group members), but also lockboxes with vastly enhanced Loot Luck, and potentially even unique pieces of degradable high-tier equipment a la quivering bowstrings.
• Ringleader and apex contracts should have no upper ceiling. If you keep killing them successfully, Stormholdt keeps giving you harder contracts that numerically increase the ringleader/apex mob's stats. How high can you go? Add leaderboards in Stormholdt for people to check and compare the biggest, most dangerous apex/ringleader mobs they've dispatched or led the dispatch of. Someone will invariably get this to the point where a wechuge is stomping around with d1200 endrolls and the carnage will be excellent.
• Add routines that periodically summon hostile patrols that bounce between certain travel junctions similar to how the Dominion patrols work. A tactics map in Stormholdt could give an indicator as to when these patrols are expected to appear, and if there are any currently on known roads. Killing these patrols could drop 'intelligence' items which can then be brought to Stormholdt or given to a warrior to hand in for a bit of riln and the potential to directly unlock an apex/ringleader contract.

Okay, that turned out a lot longer than I thought. I think there's a lot of potential to position warriors as the guild responsible for dragging people out into the Lost Lands together, with contracts as described above being a good way of getting that rolling.

[Vaelin]

As a warrior main, the only way I was able to feel like I'm contributing to the community with what skills I have is murdering and skinning dangerous beasts before selling the pelts in the market. Other ways of doing warrior stuff would certainly help.

[Gorth]

As a warrior main, the only way I was able to feel like I'm contributing to the community with what skills I have is murdering and skinning dangerous beasts before selling the pelts in the market. Other ways of doing warrior stuff would certainly help.

This hits the head from another angle, too. People who heal, or pick boxes, or craft things get those ways to both numerical add to things as well as get interaction in a more expectable and structured way. I do enjoy that the Warrior way of life for me has tended to be, whoever's around when interesting things happen or I make interesting character decisions to follow, but things that require Warriors to do things of note, especially with non-warriors, and in things that aren't just murder machine mobs or mob stacks are really important to come up with. Because I'd like my warrior to be more than just a warrior. And I"m working on it, but it's something that's kind of having to be put on hold while I work super hard to get the warrior-ness to an adequate level to support the rest of my goals. And also, of course, as someone who plays nearly daily, I don't want to do everything before my societies come out and whatnot.

[Heron]

As with most of my opinions, hot takes ahead. You have been warned.

Sometimes warriors want to be relied on and people just don't want to rely on warriors. You can already see the trend without any real code to support it. There's a little something lacking in COGG's DNA in regards to how inter-character mechanics are implemented.

The mechanics enforce dependency but don't encourage interaction. This leads to many forced but ultimately hollow encounters:

Fix my bones please. Thanks, bye.

Reflection therapy please. How much do I owe you? Thanks, bye.

Someone fix my stuff please.

I need a guy to open my mountain of boxes. You will be compensated. Mail them to me when you're done.

Buying X, selling Y. On and on. You see it every day. You can't force people to care or put effort into their interactions, but it's a little bland to be pushed into scenes where neither party actually wants to be there. Lockpickers and physickers are the biggest victims of this. Fractures only really exist to give value to PC physickers. Lockboxes only really exist to validate PC lockpicks. Warriors don't come to you because they find you interesting or compelling to interact with. They come because they want their bones fixed, or they want their loot, or they want their smashy stick to look all shiny again. You're a mechanical nuisance that they have to talk to to rid themselves of. Like the mechanical mother in that monkey baby experiment, you are someone they are dependent on but it does not endear you to them.

The reverse will also be true if we force more interdependency from support roles onto warriors. They will need you to beat things up for them but they will never love you.

What's more compelling?

1) A PC physicker that heals you for pennies because the NPC can't.
2) A PC physicker that heals you for cheap out of the goodness of their heart because the NPC charges an arm and a leg to fix your arm and leg.

1) A lockpicker that you go to because you have no choice and your bank vault is full of boxes.
2) A lockpicker you go to because the NPC lockpicker is a scum of the earth crook who takes the most valuable finds out of your box, leaves you the scraps, and sells your goodies to the market. You have to buy your finds back from the market if you want them.

The NPC services are either nonexistent (lockpicking, bone repair), or too good (dirt-cheap weapon repair, magic healing slime for non-bone wounds). Too-good NPC services flatten the possibilities in a given niche-- good luck playing a snake oil physicker who overcharges for healing when the NPC will do it for 4 riln. A nonexistent service means there's no baseline set by the game for the value of the performing PC's labor. It also exacerbates the forced interaction issue, where a player has to sit and wait for a tedious fix just so you can be kind of special for a moment. This just leads to more thanks, bye situations.

I'd be very interested in an expansion and worsening of NPC services.

How does this tangent tie in with the warrior topic?

Many suggestions follow the same trend where we find an excuse to throw combat at noncombatants so they have to grab a warrior, and Rias has already noted that noncombatants seem to try to do anything they can to avoid relying on warriors. Warriors simply interact the most naturally with other warriors. This one fights stuff, and that one fights stuff. They have so much in common. The feeling of being a detached wandering murder hobo may well go away once the faction system gets fleshed out a bit more. A sense of belonging to a group coupled with allies and enemies sounds like a good time all around. Instant involvement, importance, and fun for the whole family.

RP-oriented tasks could be a decent option, too. 'You've been assigned to oversee the growth of a warrior junior to you. Follow X around and beat some heads with them or just hang out.' Maybe even have the quest track says and emotes exchanged as well as kills or something. Anything along that vein. 'We've received credible intelligence that an attempt may soon be made on the life of X. You have been assigned to follow them around and ensure their well-being.' Maybe something scripted happens or maybe you just hang out. Maybe nothing scripted ever happens and it just flags your duo for staff to mess with you. I like forced proximity but I don't like forced dependence, so go figure.

Lastly, there's the player themselves. It's not necessarily the fault of the game if your interactions aren't going the way you want them to. The game can try its best to facilitate your IC, but if you aren't willing to invest yourself, mechanics can only do so much. If you can find a reason to need someone else, or antagonize someone else, it could very quickly lead to a good scene. It's just starting stuff is hard and takes effort. I certainly have a problem with this myself. It's just easier to watch the numbers go up sometimes.

That's not all I've got. I am interminably long-winded. But I want to sleep now, so I'm going to stop here.

[Volinn]

Karjus echoes some of my own thoughts. Warriors feel like the main part of COGG. I’ve mentioned this in other threads, but everything else seems to be built around warriors. Physickers are mostly built around healing wounds that combatants get. Can you even get fractures outside of combat? Most of the need for sanity therapy comes from death. I have never seen anyone ask for sanity therapy outside this mechanic. Morale doesn’t affect crafting currently but does impact combat rolls. Reflection therapy benefits everyone, but combat skills are the only thing gated behind levels. While options for noncombat avenues are available to crafters, they seem mostly there to repair and create weapons and armor. As someone who’s played primarily noncombatants, the focus around combat and fighting is undeniably the focal point of the game. All other activities feel like minigames in comparison, and some aren’t even that. I get that the setting of the world is in a troubled land full of violence and strife, but it’s crazy to read stuff like this. I’m a warrior, please give me mooooore! That’s what it sounds like. You’re in one of the most developed areas of the game, what will be enough to make you happy? Do you want a button that unlocks at 600 melee or ranged that you can press that grants your wishes or something? This is obviously an exaggeration, but it’s hard to muster sympathy for this. I probably shouldn’t have even posted, but you try suppressing the indignation I feel inside.

Non-Warriors will get theirs, and even Warriors themselves are all still very much unfinished. People are naturally going to wish for more things. Just because something is 'more' finished than something else will not effect that. Games are often built around combat, it's true - especially MUDs. That COGG is attempting to do something more than that is admirable, and instead of voicing your opinions in this manner I feel like it might be more prudent to simply make suggestions.

As far me: I admit I like the idea of more menial tasks than something like going out to kill X number of things. Standing watch, being the guy who has to clean the bunk room or peel potatoes, etc. At least for earlier levels!