Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Peerless warriors of varying types, from hulking armored dreadnoughts to stealthy light-footed nightblades.
Ezrynon
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:31 pm

Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Ezrynon »

Cited from Rias
Rather than taking up a craft, I tend to do the Town Hall tasks for supplemental income between combat practice stints. It can feel humiliating and frustrating to do so as someone who's aspiring to be a mighty warrior of renown, but everyone has to work their way up from their humble beginnings somehow. Tasks will for sure be an improvement to the combat experience in general.
I don't disagree that the tasks you can do at the town hall aren't bad for filling the income, however what's frustrating is, at max from what I've added up is that I can get 12k of riln a day, while running around doing something incredibly boring, having to run across all the grid and making sure I'm on top of each task. I like the general tasks I think it's nice. But ultimately if I'm going to be a combatant I want to do combat things, with the way loot was, I could farm areas of course that were in my skill level, I'm not running around Tarueka to get riln, combat classes have to struggle enough as it is, raising 10 skill points as it is. I just want to feel like I'm actually participating for something. I think at least or two highwayman on the road or something will have people needing to try and get an escort or something. I know that's a challenge for new characters, but I am struggling to even go around Dusklamp. I would just like to see something that makes the warrior experience more involved, if I'm going to have to struggle in riln making. I don't mind the difficult start, I mind the difficult start, an end game that is sort of lackluster, and mostly getting skills high to just run around and do the same thing. Now Riln relegates me to tasks at the town hall, and the very occasional someone saying hey come help me at this difficult spot which folks don't do as much as I'd like. It's just made me think might as well, just run around and try and rp. Well, equally as difficult because people have to save up just for the basics. Something doesn't feel right to me, it's not just about crafts, I'm working for Stormaldt, I am mucking out stalls? and delivering packages/? Farmers at this point have things more interesting and more themely in my opinion than Warriors do, other than they struggle to get the things necessary to increase the farms. And even that feels more rewarding than what I'm doing now. So, like I said, something for Warriors should be considered so that it doesn't feel like just a hack and slash, that there's something better than going, Well, I got plate armor. Awesome, now what.

Don't get me wrong, I love the combat system, I can't wait to see occultists get figured out more, but Unlike crafters who get, hey i need this made, or hey can you sharpen my weapon, or hey, I would like you to make me this nice armor. What are Warriors getting from other crafters. They're not getting hey, can you do this, or hey can you help with this. Even if it were something like pay a warrior to buff your weapons so they stay in good conditions or something like that where riln is exchanged back and forth would be nice.
User avatar
Rias
DEV
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Wandering Temicotli

Re: Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Rias »

(I split the above post from the topic about Loot Luck to its own topic here in the Warrior Guild section.)

Fighters feeling less involved in the community has been a pretty longstanding feeling, I think (and not necessarily exclusive to COGG). There are plenty of reasons to call on a crafter, but people seem to be overall very reluctant to call on fighters for help in combat situations, whether that's guarding or clearing out some baddies in an area a person wants to visit/explore/pass through/whatever. Some ideas for warriorly things to do so they can feel more important and useful to the community would be great, though I think a lot of the issue is kind of a pride issue. People tend to not want to be seen asking for help in combat scenarios (combat-heavy specific GM-run events being an occasional exception).

The typical response I tend to see is that non-combatants would rather sacrifice some skill points to dip into combat themselves or just avoid the combat-blocked thing altogether, rather than call on another individual for combat help. It's been an interesting thing to observe, and I wonder if part of it is because there's no tangible exchange of goods. The person paying the fighter isn't receiving some kind of physical object or mechanical boon in return, but rather it's just removing an obstacle they wish wasn't in their way to begin with. It seems to me that fighters are generally perfectly willing to pay crafters for goods and gear, but when suggestions have been made about something like some useful crafting materials or a useful service or boon be blocked behind some kind of combat threat to give the fighters some way to feel useful to others, it has tended to make non-combatants feel like they're having their activity be unnecessarily gated by a combat situation. There seems to be in contemporary times a stigma to combat in general, as if it's lesser or lowbrow in a MUD setting. Likely resulting from the fact that most MUDs and other settings like tabletop games and such started out being so ultra-focused on combat and everything else was an afterthought.

Anyhow! More ideas to make Warriors (and fighters/combat-characters in general) feel more useful and appreciated would be fantastic. For my part, I'm working on tasks and some of the Societies to give them a bit more direction and feeling that they have a place.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
Gorth
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:53 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Gorth »

I was going to post this in the above linked thread, but figured this was a generally better dumping ground for my thoughts.
.
Cheers, Rias. I recognize that that post have sounded a bit whiny - and truth be told I was a little put off by it when I woke up to it this morning.

A lot of focus is set on starting out as a Warrior, which I think is actually at a pretty good point. Especially if you get player made things, that's all on the players to set to rights or not.

Like I said, I'm at D650 right now, and perhaps I'm just not good at the game or something, but I've been at this point with rather good classes twice now and find it rather remarkably difficult to grind specifically for money. Then again, this Dreadnought isn't Strength. I willingly made that choice, and I'm not going to winge about that. I will say, however, that despite what people say, I've played both sides of what an optimal attribute and a non-optimal attribute build feel like, and it is remarkable. I'll make my own post on that some day when I'm feeling more like contributing.

Overall, I really like the spirit of this change, and the change itself. I'm trying to raise a lot of money in game for a specific purpose, right now, so the timing sucks, but hey.
More in response to the things posted here thus far:

Yes. Without getting too IC, my character has often attempted to offer his martial expertise, even for simple things like guarding a Treasure Hunter in Tarueka; something that most people can do with minimal skill investment. I am rebuffed a vast majority of the time, and those little times I get are not really enough to fulfill that itch that the character has for such things. I'm not really sure, as of yet, how to help that, except for hoping that the Ability Trees gate combat a whole lot more and make us more desireable.
:undm_scales_key: :shagerd:
Proud owner of the ten thousandth post.
Ezrynon
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:31 pm

Re: Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Ezrynon »

Rias wrote:
The typical response I tend to see is that non-combatants would rather sacrifice some skill points to dip into combat themselves or just avoid the combat-blocked thing altogether, rather than call on another individual for combat help. It's been an interesting thing to observe, and I wonder if part of it is because there's no tangible exchange of goods. The person paying the fighter isn't receiving some kind of physical object or mechanical boon in return, but rather it's just removing an obstacle they wish wasn't in their way to begin with. It seems to me that fighters are generally perfectly willing to pay crafters for goods and gear, but when suggestions have been made about something like some useful crafting materials or a useful service or boon be blocked behind some kind of combat threat to give the fighters some way to feel useful to others, it has tended to make non-combatants feel like they're having their activity be unnecessarily gated by a combat situation.
If I'm to be honest about this, Crafters have so much they can do, have the capability of utilizing, and the ability to profit so much from their craft, that making rare materials or unique materials attainable only by warriors or people working in tandem would benefit the warriors retrieving them, and the crafters that work it. If people feel negative about it, in my opinion, it's a sign that reliance is needed on others in a good way. If you can do everything and need no help to do it, then it's not adding to the environment and it still leaves non crafters in a bind. I really do think weapon maintenance and things may be a way to help those warriors who can do those things be useful. Crafts making netherbane oil? something more utility, or the ability in help getting rare items would at least give warriors a way to offer something to the community if they're not called on in a combat sort of way.

I personally don't think it's low brow for combat characters, but I think it goes back to the getting good enough to be reliable and lowering the I'm going to die so much it can approach ridiculous factor. People feel the need to push hard, and when they feel that need in my opinion they want to do it all at the beginning so they can feel accomplished. I'm not sure how the motivation to keep warriors in an RP mood would work, but it's just my observations over the years.
Alicron
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:50 am

Re: Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Alicron »

To throw out some random ideas.

- Rare items that can be gathered from monsters and directly sold to crafters or placed on the market are always a good idea.
- Add a small chance when using the TRAVEL command for a random encounter that would pose a risk to un-armed travelers. Robber: "Your GP or your HP!"
- Add a guard contract that crafters could purchase for player guards via a third party and with a scripted system. Crafter buys contract, player guard agrees to fulfill it. It directly states the where, when, and how much. When fulfilled, the guard gets some sort of rep/reward with the third party and the crafter can actively see what rep the guard has earned. This 3rd party could also be used for other things.
User avatar
Maina
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:32 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Maina »

I think putting this on pride isn't quite accurate.

There was talk in a thread about Physickers before about this, but different activities in this game take different mindsets. Sometimes, one may be in a mood for RP, other times for grind. Sometimes someone may be in a mood for socializing, sometimes they want to do things solo.

Crafting is generally a grind/solo activity. Generally. Some crafters do go out of their way to socialize while crafting (though the spam, then, can be annoying for others), but mostly it is something to do when someone wants to play but does not have the energy for group activity and roleplay. When there is RP, it is usually before and after the actual crafting (someone places an order, you go to make it, then you deliver it).

So, then, requiring group roleplay activity to gather materials is working counter to the mindset people go into when they want to craft. Not to say this is wrong, per se, but it will always be a point of resistance and contention because the designs are at odds.

Sometimes, the warriors themselves can gather the materials and sell to the market or to crafters, but this adds to the feeling that you have to be a warrior to accomplish anything if there is crafting content locked to fighters. Much like scholars shouldn't expect to be warriors (something often repeated), warriors shouldn't expect to be crafters, let alone be required for crafting. If it went this way, due to a desire for inter-guild reliance or some such, I would suggest also having crafting materials gated to scholars (lore items that need studied to be crafted with?) and adventurers (something that only shows up in high level stationary lockboxes?) as well.

The same is true for guarding people in areas. If I am playing a non-combatant who needs something in a combat area (usually locksmith), my goal is to get in, avoid all the fighting, grab what I need, and get out. Solo/grind mindset. Bringing someone else along:

1. Slows me down, as avoiding fights is no longer going to happen
2. Either adds risk for joining fights or adds boredom as I wait them out
3. No longer allows me to play at my own pace but requires me to cater to theirs
4. Costs me money on top of all this

It's not about pride. It's just a net loss in every respect.

These methods work against player psychology and will always be a friction point because of it. The exception will be when someone is specifically in the mood for helping out a fellow player or specifically wants the roleplay of visiting some place new with someone else.

Warriors have the most content of anyone in the game right now. It is a pretty combat-heavy game. If the concern is play as a new warrior (something my nightblade had no real issue with) or combatting boredom, I think tasks are the best solution to both these issues. Tasks will provide variety in things to do and also bump up the pay for new warriors so they can afford things sooner.
User avatar
Karjus
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:28 am

Re: Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Karjus »

Unfortunately, people will try and do everything they can on their own and avoid grouping when possible in general. I say unfortunately, because it can make it difficult to sometimes establish yourself or feel like you're getting involved.

Keep in mind, crafters currently just grind out the same thing constantly just as combatants do. There are cooking crafts, but it is also the least fleshed out system out of them all.

Still, however in regards to combatants, we have so of the most content in the game currently. Could we do with more? Could we do with more variety, and maybe some tasks? Sure. It will all help, but it is hardly as though there is nothing to do or that we're not able to advance to maximum skill.
- Karjus

Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
Kismet
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:28 pm

Re: Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Kismet »

Maina wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:02 pm 3. No longer allows me to play at my own pace but requires me to cater to theirs
4. Costs me money on top of all this
Warriors experience this already. I don't know how many times my gameplay loop has been: Fight three things - Get arm broken - Wait around until healer logs in.

I remember when the town needed peat from the bog and people were getting together in gatherer groups with warriors to protect them. Maybe if there were more town-centric things like that going on where the items to be retrieved weren't valuable for crafting but helped the group as a whole that wouldn't trip up the crafters as much as "There are 37 jacalopes loose in the coal mine".

If there was an off-duty profession system that could give warriors more stuff to do in town that helped crafting professions and played off the warrior skills that might help. Maybe something like a blacksmith getting a Strength warrior to work the bellows to give them a speed boost.
Navi
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:07 am

Re: Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Navi »

Karjus echoes some of my own thoughts. Warriors feel like the main part of COGG. I’ve mentioned this in other threads, but everything else seems to be built around warriors. Physickers are mostly built around healing wounds that combatants get. Can you even get fractures outside of combat? Most of the need for sanity therapy comes from death. I have never seen anyone ask for sanity therapy outside this mechanic. Morale doesn’t affect crafting currently but does impact combat rolls. Reflection therapy benefits everyone, but combat skills are the only thing gated behind levels. While options for noncombat avenues are available to crafters, they seem mostly there to repair and create weapons and armor. As someone who’s played primarily noncombatants, the focus around combat and fighting is undeniably the focal point of the game. All other activities feel like minigames in comparison, and some aren’t even that. I get that the setting of the world is in a troubled land full of violence and strife, but it’s crazy to read stuff like this. I’m a warrior, please give me mooooore! That’s what it sounds like. You’re in one of the most developed areas of the game, what will be enough to make you happy? Do you want a button that unlocks at 600 melee or ranged that you can press that grants your wishes or something? This is obviously an exaggeration, but it’s hard to muster sympathy for this. I probably shouldn’t have even posted, but you try suppressing the indignation I feel inside.
wander without wanting, thrust into lands unknown. the shadows shift and change, and the worlds with them.
I'm not a soldier but I'm fighting
Can you hear me through the silence?
I won't give up 'cause there will be a day
We'll meet again
Ezrynon
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:31 pm

Re: Discussion about the Warrior Experience

Post by Ezrynon »

I guess if really everyone's fine with it, and I don't mean that in a passive aggressive way just if people think it's fine, then I guess it's fine, I personally feel like a toon running around and beating up monsters, and I just need to adapt my rp for just social things instead of feeling like I'm involved in what's going on in my activities. Maybe it's just that I should craft and just do that. I just feel like while we have great content in the fact there are skills, and this is a game that ultimately feels like it's geared to be towards a combat focus, it'd just be nice for something that encourages social interaction, a way to contribute meaningfully and provides some benefit and is more robust that allows for rp, and monitary interaction. Something that plays into the economy. I wish I could explain my concern better. I know what the problem is but I struggle to put it into words that doesn't just make it sound like I'm complaining. I genuinely love the game, and I genuinely love the players, ultimately I'll keep playing, it just feels like it's pushed towards people contributing to warriors, which doesn't mean it's bad, but the circle stops there, and the warriors don't have a way to contribute back to players, because of maybe other things that I just don't get, or just doesn't fit my playstyle.
Post Reply