Skill practice and challenge

[adresin]

I haven't tried combat with either of my characters since this change, but it seems fair on the surface at least. However, I do have one concern that I'm going to preimptively bring up, armor use.

I never went to the ravens specifically for dodge. I didn't really feel a need to, since it would be practiced in any fight anyway. However, even though the same is true for armor use, I had a heck of a time with that one. wearing much armor at all seemed to tank my dodge so much that I would be bleeding in no time. On the other hand, not wearing armor other than boots, against anything other than ravens, had the same result. I ended up spending some time letting ravens peck at me, as well as practicing some melee, to get that armor use up to a level where I felt it was at least reasonable. My physicker did a bit better, but that's because when I started her I knew about combat more, and I was aware of padded armor that was a bit less tricky than the leather stuff.

There's a lot to be said for learning the game, but I still worry about newbies if a change like this is made for armor use. Not saying it shouldn't be, just mentioning that experience to give a bit of that new player perspective.

BTW, super glad Rias said he won't be lowering skill points. First, punishing players for using an existing game mechanic is, well I'll just say doesn't seem like Cogg's style. But second, there are definitely some of us out here who haven't maxed out our combat goals yet. We seem to get new players, or at least new characters, on a pretty regular basis so I think we'll be fine there. Besides, if staff plays too, there's that.

[Lexx416]

I haven't tried combat with either of my characters since this change, but it seems fair on the surface at least. However, I do have one concern that I'm going to preimptively bring up, armor use.

I never went to the ravens specifically for dodge. I didn't really feel a need to, since it would be practiced in any fight anyway. However, even though the same is true for armor use, I had a heck of a time with that one. wearing much armor at all seemed to tank my dodge so much that I would be bleeding in no time. On the other hand, not wearing armor other than boots, against anything other than ravens, had the same result. I ended up spending some time letting ravens peck at me, as well as practicing some melee, to get that armor use up to a level where I felt it was at least reasonable. My physicker did a bit better, but that's because when I started her I knew about combat more, and I was aware of padded armor that was a bit less tricky than the leather stuff.

There's a lot to be said for learning the game, but I still worry about newbies if a change like this is made for armor use. Not saying it shouldn't be, just mentioning that experience to give a bit of that new player perspective.

Armor use is a bit tricky too. The thing that I've (personally) found that helps coincides with the way I also like to play the game. I only like to train up my skills in increments of 25 at a time, so even when I make a Warrior, I usually wait until level 3 to actually start fighting things. I keep myself on that cycle, and that also means I end up taking a break from training (though I will still go out and hunt) combat skills once in a while.The largest benefit to this is it means that your Defensive skill and your Armor use will go up faster than your melee or ranged (since it triggers on every hit, vs every kill), so that you should always have a very slight edge over your current challenge, but not so much that it will hurt loot, skill gain, or experience gain.

The first 25 or so points of Armor Use still might be tricky to get through especially for 100% newbies, but I also think that with the changes to the skill challenges (and the Practiced vs Trained) that maybe we should be able to use the STUDY command for the first 10 or 20 points of ANY skill, not just specific ones. That would let folks get rolling a little faster, but not totally cut out entire areas/not make it easy to skip entire combat zones.

[Lexx416]

I've got a change in testing now that has armor hindrance cause negative rerolls rather than mess with dice sides, since the current hindrance effect is a relic of a time before rerolls had become the standard way to implement bonuses and penalties.

I'm a little concerned about this specific nugget from your post today, and it's been rolling around in my head all day. Given how uncommon it is for positive rerolls outside of some specific Warrior classes, I feel like this might end up hurting non-warrior combatants. A primalist, for example, has absolutely no way to get positive rerolls on attack rolls outside of morale that I'm aware of (beyond the positive rerolls from stealth that anyone can get but requires a hefty skill investment to be relevant up to their combat caps), but has more than one ability geared towards combat. Are there going to be more ways for non-warriors to get those positive rerolls? Or are the classes that get the most going to be tuned down in any way?

[Marcuson]

Here's what it's like to practice Dodge now:

You consider your combat capability vs that of a restless skeleton ...
With melee combat you figure it'd be a significant challenge.
With ranged combat you figure it'd be a bit of a challenge.

You quietly get into position to stalk a restless skeleton as it moves.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

[GoodMorale, Ambush:2]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148([1]x)):61 vs Dodge(d178(-2x)(-2!)):58 = 3 (2%)
1 crush damage (right leg)
1 alchemical damage (right leg)
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

[GoodMorale, Ambush:1]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148([1]x)):117 vs Dodge(d178(-1x)(-1!)):81 = 36 (24%)
22 crush damage (115%) (head)
4 alchemical damage (head)
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

You notice a restless skeleton trace the attack trajectory and spot you in your hiding spot.

A restless skeleton circles around you warily, looking for an opportunity to strike. Off(d160(4x)):146 vs Def(d136(-2x)):55 = 91 (56%)
a restless skeleton manages to improve its balance and position.

You are driven from your hiding spot!

You manage to stay out of a restless skeleton's melee range!
(energy -5)

You feint preparing to sling a stone at a restless skeleton with your sling! Off(d140(2+[1]x)):81 vs Def(d160):8 = 73 (52%)
a restless skeleton falls for the ruse, moving to avoid a blow that never came!
Roundtime: 2 seconds.

[GoodMorale]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148([1]x)):22 vs Dodge(d178(-1x)):91 = -69 (-46%)
missed!
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

[+0.05 Armor Use practice]
[GoodMorale]
A restless skeleton pounds at you with its nether-oozing fist! Melee(d160):138 vs Dodge(d154(-1+[1]x)):12 = 126 (78%)
17 bludgeon damage (43%) (abdomen, cuirass)
14 nether damage (73%) (abdomen, cuirass)

[GoodMorale]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148([1]x)):67 vs Dodge(d178(-1x)):90 = -23 (-15%)
missed!
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

[+0.05 Armor Use practice]
[GoodMorale]
A restless skeleton swings at you with its nether-oozing fist! Melee(d160):62 vs Dodge(d154(-1+[1]x)):2 = 60 (37%)
5 bludgeon damage (38%) (chest, cuirass)
4 nether damage (66%) (chest, cuirass)

[GoodMorale, ArmorHinder:-1]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148(-1+[1]x)):8 vs Dodge(d178(-1x)):22 = -14 (-9%)
missed!
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

A restless skeleton circles around you warily, looking for an opportunity to strike. Off(d160(4x)):123 vs Def(d136(-1+[1]x)):88 = 35 (21%)
a restless skeleton manages to improve its balance and position.

You manage to stay out of a restless skeleton's melee range!
(energy -5)
[GoodMorale]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148([1]x)):109 vs Dodge(d178(-2x)):3 = 106 (71%)
68 crush damage (119%) (back)
14 alchemical damage (back)
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

[+0.05 Armor Use practice]
A restless skeleton pounds at you with its nether-oozing fist! Melee(d160):146 vs Dodge(d154):107 = 39 (24%)
5 bludgeon damage (41%) (right hand, gloves)
4 nether damage (66%) (right hand, gloves)

You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148):140 vs Dodge(d178):5 = 135 (91%)
86 crush damage (119%) (left leg)
A restless skeleton falls to the ground!
A restless skeleton is staggered *and stunned*!
18 alchemical damage (left leg)
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

A restless skeleton no longer appears staggered.

A restless skeleton stands up.

[GoodMorale, ArmorHinder:-1]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148(-1+[1]x)):45 vs Dodge(d178(-4x)):27 = 18 (12%)
10 crush damage (111%) (neck)
2 alchemical damage (neck)
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

[+0.05 Armor Use practice]
A restless skeleton swings at you with its nether-oozing fist! Melee(d160):136 vs Dodge(d154):14 = 122 (76%)
11 bludgeon damage (42%) (left arm, vambraces)
9 nether damage (69%) (left arm, vambraces)

[ArmorHinder:-1]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148(-1x)):23 vs Dodge(d178(-5x)):36 = -13 (-8%)
missed!
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

You manage to stay out of a restless skeleton's melee range!
(energy -5)
shoot
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148):122 vs Dodge(d178(-5x)):13 = 109 (73%)
69 crush damage (118%) (neck)
14 alchemical damage (neck)
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

[+0.05 Armor Use practice]
[+0.1 Dodge practice]
A restless skeleton pounds at you with its nether-oozing fist! Melee(d160):8 vs Dodge(d154):96 = -88 (-55%)
dodged!

[GoodMorale]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148([1]x)):48 vs Dodge(d178(-4x)):10 = 38 (25%)
24 crush damage (120%) (head)
5 alchemical damage (head)
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

You manage to stay out of a restless skeleton's melee range!
(energy -5)
You manage to stay out of a restless skeleton's melee range!
(energy -5)

[+0.05 Armor Use practice]
[GoodMorale, ArmorHinder:-1]
A restless skeleton swings at you with its nether-oozing fist! Melee(d160):126 vs Dodge(d154(-1+[1]x)):54 = 72 (45%)
6 bludgeon damage (40%) (left arm, vambraces)
5 nether damage (71%) (left arm, vambraces)

[GoodMorale]
You sling a bullet at a restless skeleton with your sling! Ranged(d148([1]x)):98 vs Dodge(d178(-4x)):22 = 76 (51%)
49 crush damage (119%) (neck)
A restless skeleton falls to the ground with a clatter, small tendrils of ebon mist rising from the bones.

[+0.4 Ranged Combat practice]
10 alchemical damage (neck)
(energy -5)
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

[Ephemeralis]

Physickers are going to be in excruciatingly high demand.

[Verel]

I'm fine with what's going on right now certainly. I appreciate that there're random challenges with the tabard on and random encounters. Pretty cool you get to fight basically random stuff.

[Gorth]

I don't know that I can provide any really helpful commentary here, other than maybe I'm just at an awful position (where my dodge is half my melee because I'm not a dodge build) and this just doesn't work. 700 Melee, 300 Dodge. Walk into Tanglewood, take eight hurled axes from stealth, get zero practice. Is it supposed to only sometimes give you practice? Because every twenty minutes I'll see practice. But like, 0.05, or something.

Maybe I'm just doing that thing where I get weirdly different results than everyone else. And I certainly don't mean to complain. I'm just getting hammered into the ground for no practice and I'm trying to debug why it's happening.

Personally I feel like a more elegant solution would be to give you practice on all of your combat skills (other than maybe armor use) once an enemy was killed. Scale it up, obviously, so you can get at most 0.6 Dodge practice per kill, like Melee.

[Rias]

Per the changelog:

- Dodge and Shield Use skill gains now occur even when the dodge or block roll fails, so long as an attempt was made against a challenging skill roll.
- The range to decide challenge rating for Dodge and Shield Use rolls is now more lenient about which situations are considered challenging enough to grant gains.

Hopefully these make training Dodge and Shield feel a bit more reasonable! The second one essentially means you can train the skills up on things that are a bit easier, allowing you to actually dodge and block more often against a lesser challenge and still get gains from it. Should save some money on medical bills!

[Jilliana]

Thank you so much for this particular change. I really, really appreciate that things were seen to and fixed accordingly.

[Gorth]

You currently can get practice from players. I'd imagine we want to fix this very fast.