Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

[Lexx416]

question for rpers though, why do people even consider fitting someone somewhere they know has nothing to do with them? What does a healer in say, a smuggling ring do anyway? Fix someone's ass when they get caught trying to sneak out a secret vial?

Scholars (just the same as anyone else that takes the Iquaj glyph and raises their stealth to 400) can get over 600 stealth when buffed. So I imagine a Physicker that might want to join the Definitely Not A Thieves Guild Society is interested in being sneaky. But also, yes, patching up people that get injured on "on the job", operating as a "face", maybe poisoning people (or crafting poisons) when we get that system in play.

[Firerose]

I've only read the first four posts on page one, and the last couple on whatever page this is. There are a lot of things I have not read that I will, I just wanted to chime in first.

I like this very much. I've noticed since sometime in January that you've been more visibly around/available some days. It does my heart good to see this--it means you enjoy what you're doing, and we can, too, by seeing you take part in it.
I very much like the idea of having more publicly-available skills/abilities. As always, I am concerned about how this will affect crafting. I am one of those who struggles making choices and sticking with them. Call it a strength or one heck of a character flaw, I don't care. There are times I like it, and times I hate it. I have a lot of interests, and there simply is never enough time, opportunity, ability, points (in a game setting), to do them all. This is a lifelong struggle.
I'm sharing that because I want to give voice to anyone else who struggles with the same thing. It's the INFP difficulty with making choices (not just us, but others as well...but it is us).
I don't want to do everything, but I struggle with having x number of points and x number of ability points. There is no easy way to deal with this, and I know all too well that most people are not like this. That, too, simply is what it is--neither way is bad, even if the one I deal with creates its own set of problems, other ways of being too rigid and minimalistic can as well.
I'm not meaning this to start any kind of debate. I just want to express it, because I feel it needs to be shared. I don't know what it will look like with your new setup. I would love to poke around a test server with whatever you do bring on there for us to play with.

TLDR: I think, overall, I will like this way much better. I worry for crafting and how it will be affected. However, there've been times I've wanted to add just one more thing, maybe two, to my character's class, keeping them very much as they are. I would like to see more available for primalists, and I have an idea that I'm pretty sure would not get implemented of a druid healer type. I miss playing that role on Clok with herbs. I miss it very badly, in fact.
I'm excited. Thank you, Rias. And I am so, so glad you are enjoying your game. That, in the end, is what's most important. It's your world, after all, we just play in it.

[Agelity]

The more I think on it the more I think I like the idea of still having skill caps determined by specializations, and maybe certain abilities associated with that. In this way, someone that wishes to have the best climbing ability in the game needs to become a ranger and then invest in the skill points. Likewise, if someone wants to be the best warrior out there, they can just go all in on skills/abilities related to their warrior specialization and everyone else? If they want to come close to achieving the same they'd have to do the same, or deal with the fact that the lack of specialization might open up certain things, but will absolutely close off others.

Basically, a way to allow some breadth but to also really reward depth, I think is really the larger concern I'm seeing so far. People want to feel like their investments mean something, and it's something I know I've echoed in times past as well

Even things like Nightblades I think could have a little extra something when it comes to sorcery compared to others if they so choose (maybe cap of 100 skill higher?) and some class bonuses associated that others just won't ever have access to. Meanwhile warlocks just continue doing warlock things, as the Rook Parlour gives them access to a bunch of neat stuff that others can't ever hope to get a single bit of. Gives the identity of specializations a little extra something and for those that really dive into that specialization I'd hope it can really allow them to shine accordingly (like Duelists/Bards having flip flank + higher skill cap while others manage what they can, Dreadnoughts being absolute terrors defensively/offensively with 2H weapons that no others can even compare, etc.).

I know for my own characters it'll certainly have some impact, and depending on the extent of the changes will absolutely result in me needing to make some tough choices I haven't fully settled on (especially given that... I don't really know the extent of the changes, so it's mostly uncertainty). At the same time, for the health of the game at large I think the change will be good, I just also think it ought to be approached with caution and adequate feedback so that it 1) feels fun and lively to work on and develop and 2) fun and lively to play, whoever our characters are.

I do think some may find themselves a little dissatisfied with some of the choices they'll have to make, but I think that's also just a reality of the state the game's currently in. I think as time goes on and things get fleshed out and expanded upon some of these anxieties people have will ease, but until then I think we're mostly just caught in a place of speculation, especially for those of us that might've found like we found a niche for our characters in this world that we rather like.

Regarding societies and the like, I still like the idea of certain societies being more RP-specific (Tse Gaiyan, Wyrvardn, Harbingers, etc.) while having certain "organizations" act as a separate "society" of sorts (Rook Parlour, Stormholdt, etc.) can help to allow a bit more breadth of RP with some limitations that maybe need to be taken into consideration as well (ie, how well will the anti-nethrim society adopt to any sorcery practitioners, let alone those of Rook Parlour). Would love some clarification on the distinctions there and any restrictions that might come about.

So again, I think a lot of the concerns are about rewarding breadth too much given the price it costs to invest in a characters depth (28/100 levels worth of skill points to cap a skill is very hefty), but I think really rewarding players who do really specialize while allowing those that might wish to branch out a little will help to assuage some concerns.

Edit: I guess should maybe clarify: overall I'm actually really excited for the changes, just a matter of seeing how it all pans out and gets rolled out.

[artus]

I do have something else to chime in, thinking and reflecting on a few posts up there. But before that, shoutout to Firerose for bringing back my glorious day of old Arty being a land doctor for a good happy while.

Anyway, someone made an interesting point about harbinger bard. It sounds sinister and I can see it in play. Hypnotize your dismissive foes to oblivian to dwell in the wrath of the dark lord, mm!
Jokes aside, having warlocks rook only (will need to, according to you @Rias), means they're society locked if Rooks are still societties. May be make them some kind of school or something or whatever non-library stuff they actually have to join, but not society, so they don't have to be society bound, unable to do anything else just because sorcery abilities are there. The same may well apply to primalists and druidry. We got that place. We can see a whole school outa them, right? That way they don't have to end up tied to the library and feeling awkward learning how to mess with the dead from there. We can have the library be more of a studying place while having the class elsewhere, right? Then again, going this way may as well mean we bring the whole rook parler into the game, but technically warlocks are pretty much direct associates anyway, and lore wise if I remember correctly, they study from rook instructors. It may help with those who're afraid of being stuck where they can't choose just because abilities are there. I forgot bard going with mummers. It's pretty much the same thing, isn't it?

[Teri]

I overall like the idea, and it feels less stifling for combat abilities. I'll probably have more thoughts the future but throwing out my tangent thought in the window of time while waiting on food.
Since skimming comments today I had some thoughts on some single skill point wonders and ways to make 100 skill points meaningful, and that would be if qualities on crafting were a thing, and under 100 skill points led to failures/junk as crafting rolls. Tie it in with future special crafters who can possibly change quality the future, novice crafters can bring their lower quality stuff and go uhh this is junk help? They still get practice, but have something to do with low quality stuff. (Some tangent thoughts on apprenticeship or skill partnering for making higher quality things too, add both sets of character skills where someone with more experience can help them make less crap quality up to a certain threshold) 1 point can maybe repair, make hides, craft etc, but maybe the quality is too low to sell to the market, has less durability, repairs have a chance to only be partial if the roll sucks, fails to do anything, or damages items, decreases max durability. could be an open roll, or hidden with flavour messaging of "you don't feel you did a good job." etc.
Horse riding, a random chance to get bucked off under 100. Certainly 100 skill points could be the minimum to actual do certain things, but sometimes skilling up also drags on grind wise. Make it possible to do all those things one can currently with 1 point, but maybe one breaks some of the tools using low amounts of skills. For those wishing to be self-reliant maybe they can do all the repairs, but they decrease durability until they have to go to someone more experienced eventually. Bushcraft having different skill thresholds along 25, 50 and 100 for foraging fatwood and crushing fibers is the only craft I know of where 1-100 matters, and then skinning having sinews available somewhere post 50. Current skills could have something similar with a separation of what is possible.

[Dennis]

I completely agree with the positive sentiments regarding the recent updates to COGG. The new skill-based ability trees have always been exciting to me, and I'm glad to see that you, the developer, is coming into a newfound passion for the game. Also, I would like to shout out the involvement of the fantastic GMs who are hard at work putting in lore and content for us to explore and discover.

What sets apart any project you've developed from other games in the same sphere is that you are personally passionate and committed to the game. From my first forays in CLOK, to now, even when not every idea is perfect you are actively participating in the game. You listen to the community, and in turn their passion shines through. The fact that you're feeling rejuvenated while working is something that I love, and the fact that you are all constantly working to make the game better.

I understand the mixed feelings. I hope that implementation gives people more concrete ground to state their cases on. I am of the mindset that decoupling from the generic guilds and bringing in more familiar organizations is a step in the right direction. While our core Attribute, Class, and Society may impact critical areas of our character in build, I find there's nothing wrong with giving players the ability to specialize outside and branch outside the possibility of the norm.

I don't think we need to worry about a meta cookie-cutter build; in fact, I think the opposite is more likely to occur with so many options available that it may be overwhelming.

At the same time, not needing to be concerned for the development of a mercantile guild means we can all be great crafters, now, if we spend the time into it.

Overall, I'm excited to see where these updates will take the game, and I'm grateful for the passion and dedication of the community and yourself, Rias.

[Vaelin]

Just a quick suggestion on the potential skill cap distribution thing. Everyone unspecialized with no abilities will have a default cap on all skills. once you join a specialist group, you will gain caps on the dominant skill they offer, accro for duelists etc. But what if you just don't want to join any society? General abilities will give you access to skill caps as well, so if you have tumble for example, your skill cap will increase by 100 as well... I'm pretty sure there's room for improvement here, but that's what I got for now.

[Firerose]

The thing that drew me into COGG's crafting system was the fact that we could make things at really, really low skill levels. I worry that making the requirement 100 would encourage grinding, and waste that first 100 skill points. They're already gold anyway.

[Lexx416]

general class specialization stuff in the ability tree system

Have you decided if investing in the Class Specializations for the Skill Trees will be unlearnable, similar to how abilities are now?

Have you decided how ability unlearning will work with the trees? IE, can we unlearn the first ability down a line to unlearn everything after it, or will we have to unlearn them one at a time?

[HeckTurtle]

The idea of skill trees that allow a little more freedom is very exciting to me, especially if it allows non-warriors to get to a point where they can reasonably hold their own in combat (without completely deleting the need for specialized warriors, though).

(Primalist ramble warning, probably skippable if too long)
I've been playing a Primalist for ~1 1/2 years now and one thing that has hugely contributed to wavering motivation to continue playing the character has been feeling like I can't provide many things that are helpful to other PCs because of my class.

Many of the unique things they have at the moment are duration bonuses to/improvements on abilities other druids can have, so it doesn't feel like people have a real reason to want a Primalist around over Rangers or Berserkers past RP reasons where they're expected to lean more into the scholarly bits than a Ranger or Berserker would. Particularly because some of the things that are super cool for helping out in group combat and are Primalist-unique (namely group vitality and mass calming) sort of become useless or even detrimental to the group's success once it involves participation from other druids or people who utilize warhorses. At least when the affected people dislike being under those effects and when the caster cares about inflicting adverse effects on people without their express permission. Which my Primalist does care about, except for the times when I do a derp and forget that the cool ability I'm casting that I think helps is actually doing the opposite of helping, like yesterday. (Genuinely sorry OOCly y'all, my brain just doesn't work sometimes.) Then it's just back to feint/circle/attack endlessly to help the group, also get hit a whole bunch and be temporarily staggerlocked here and there unless someone guards me. The flashing lights do help though, those are fun.

It's been a lot of telling myself that there are a lot of cool things planned for Primalists that will be implemented one day and would expand our usefulness outside of combat as well as inside combat, but struggling to find out how to find a place in the playerbase and not fade into the background in the meantime. Especially as a quieter, introverted character. I love the concept of the class and think it is the right one for Florenza in concept, though there's been times where I've questioned it and wondered if it would have been better to become a Ranger or a Berserker because my current class choice has felt more restrictive than rewarding for picking that specialization.
(End Primalist ramble)

Anyway, all that to say that the mention of increased attention being able to go toward non-combat abilities should these changes take place makes me more excited and hopeful that Primalists will be able to feel like they can provide unique and helpful things to the rest of the playerbase as a result of their specialization sooner, and the same for other classes that might feel like they're in much of the same spot as Primalists.

Though I do share some others' concerns about the possible downsides of this sort of system, with worrying a little that staff might end up being spread too thin between all of the different organizations, and that it might be difficult to find a spot for every class where it feels like proper specialization without making either the non-specialized people feel their investments were useless or the specialized people feel useless because their specialization isn't seen as particularly useful by the rest of the population compared to what can be achieved without specializing into a class.

Other than that, it's very heartwarming to see increased passion toward COGG in general! I think that if it is the best choice to maintain motivation for development, it's ultimately the right choice, even if it might be a little bit of a bumpy road on the way to finding what works. There's no fun in grinding away at something you lack passion for. I have faith in COGG's staff.

Slightly off-topic question, but I recall hearing in the past that Herbalism was going to be combined with the Medical skill. If the Medical skill is going to be split into Physiology/Psychology, will Herbalism go back to being planned as its own unique skill or will it be bundled under possibly Physiology instead?