Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

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Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by Rias »

While it's always been a little nagging thing for me since the creation of COGG as a reboot/continuation of my previous work, something has recently culminated in what I believe may be my biggest struggle with running the game. It's been an issue of my own making. When COGG started, CLOK was still running. I felt the need to differentiate, to not step on my previous creation's toes or the toes of those who were now running CLOK. And I was excited and eager to try some new ideas or methods, and see if I could avoid some pain points of my past work.

I think the misstep that has made me the most unhappy has been - and I hope this ends up being less controversial than it sounds - trying to cater to a wider audience. There were people in CLOK who didn't like that they had to be associated with guild/faction/organization X to get ability/skill/benefit Y. Okay, that seemed reasonable. In COGG I decided to try having more generalized and generic guilds. Instead of having the Wyrvardn, Dwaedn Wyr, Claw of Shar, Rook Parlour, Mayhew's Mummers, etc. we have the deliberately-generic Warrior's Guild, Adventurer's Guild, and Scholar's Guild. Join for whatever reason you want, they don't care. They're just there to take your money (oops, dues never did get implemented) and teach you whatever you ask them to teach you.

As time went on this concept sort of spread more and more in my subconscious. I was worried to make guilds or even to a degree, factions, do much of anything that might feel too narrow or restricting (with some exceptions, of course). The result was that I got increasingly bored with my own game and setting. I never lost my passion for the world itself and the lore and the desire to make the experience fun for players. However, with the growing restraints on doing anything that might not be interesting or acceptable to as wide an audience as possible, or worrying about making someone feel their specific character idea/vision/goal wasn't being supported ... I just felt lost and floundering in an inch-deep ocean. By my own doing, the game felt shallow, bland, generic, and - to use the phrase of a trusted friend who I asked for honest critique because they hardly ever played the game - "soulless." (Note: This is all from my perspective about my own work and the game setting from my side of things. This is not a criticism of the players. You all have always been awesome with your characters and bringing your own RP to the game and doing your best to build on the existing lore and setting. You all are the reason I never felt I had run completely out of steam.)

I floundered for a good while. I never felt like quitting, but I struggled with a constant feeling of disappointment and general dissatisfaction regarding the game. That constant feeling of something missing. I was trying, and I never wanted to stop trying, but nothing seemed to be working. When I finally managed to start identifying and admitting to myself what the problem was, I started feeling better surprisingly quickly. And I feel like the game is getting better as I've begun coming to grips with it and shifting my own attitude and approach. I've been bringing organizations and areas back from CLOK. I've told myself to stop changing things for the sake of making them different from CLOK. While I truly mourn the end of that project, I also celebrate the ability it has given me to no longer feel guilty about making things "the same as in CLOK," and now I can allow it to live on more fully with COGG as a truer continuation of it rather than as a fork or offshoot.

I'm rambling a lot. This has been a largely "this is how I feel" post just to kind of get my thoughts out of my system and voiced, and I appreciate the patience of anyone managing to read through it.

Now to what this all means for COGG in more specifics: I'm going to be narrowing the scope of things in certain ways. I am decoupling from the idea of the generic Warrior Guild, Scholar Guild, Adventurer Guild setup. They were very open and very bland. They were just skill and ability dispensers who couldn't have any particular thoughts or ideals or goals because having those might not align with some characters. But you know what? This game takes place in a small area of a post-apocalyptic quarantine zone that is still recovering from a plague that wiped out civilization not long ago. The reason I chose that kind of setting in the first place was to keep the game world more limited in scope and thus personal and intimate. It wasn't ever supposed to be a massive world where one could just get lost in the massive crowds. It was meant to be a small world, where people knew their neighbors, information and gossip spread, and it wasn't ever very viable to try and just disappear and fly under the radar. It was meant to push people into getting involved in the world itself - often whether they wanted it or not.

And it was meant to make people make choices. You might have qualms with Rook Parlour or dislike the thought of having to try and abide by their standards and answer to superiors in that organization, but there aren't exactly an overabundance of alternative organizations specializing in the deep knowledge and specialization in the wielding of sorcery in the Lost Lands. You might not love Shadgard or Mistral Lake, but those are the places in our slice of the Lost Lands where civilization has managed to survive. You might not want to join the Dwaedn Wyr and abide by their standards in order to learn that awesome primal bear claw ability, but what other specialist warrior druid groups are out here? You might find the Mummers not to be your style, but they're the ones who have the teachers and trainers able to pass on Words of Power. Not everything I've come up with in the Lost Lands is going to align with everyone's tastes ... and I think that's okay. The more I dilute the setting by making things generic or adding an alternative option every time someone isn't comfortable with the available choices, the less passion I have for the setting. I don't want a sandbox world. I don't want a massive sprawling map with endless outposts and cities where everyone can go hide away in their own personal little corner of the world away from everything else. I want this world to be the one I came up with out of excitement and passion for the idea of it, and the one I have so much love and so many dreams for, and I want to share that world with those who already enjoy it for what it is.

Got to rambling again when I said I was going to get to specifics. Back to decoupling from the generic guilds. This means there would no longer be Warrior, Scholar, and Adventurer. Instead there would be skill-based ability trees. People can still construct characters that are equivalent to what they are in the current system, it just won't be all ultra-centralized in guilds. One will go to one open public training place for the combat skills and abilities, another for their Artifice, another for their Woodworking, etc. All the existing classes will still be available as a specialized branch one can choose with some exclusive stuff gated behind those classes, but there will be a lot of stuff that's more general and more open to pick up without dedicating to a specific character archetype of Warrior, Scholar, Adventurer. I'll no longer say "You chose Scholar, so you can't expect to be good at combat." Arcanist who wants to put some points into the Melee and Armor trees, and specialize in the Heavy Combat Melee Style? Go for it, head over to your town barracks and train there, they're your points, spend them how you want. You won't be an Arcanist-Dreadnought, because both of those are Class choices and only one Class can be chosen still, but there will be more freedom to dip into some of the non-class-specialized abilities that were previously completely gated and exclusive to either a specific guild or class.

The idea being that it's -more- generic and open when it comes to picking up abilities and constructing your character. I want people to have more freedom to try and achieve their character fantasy by mixing and matching more if they wish. That then leaves me with more room to focus on making my guilds/societies and such be how I want them. If a specialized guild doesn't appeal to you? That's too bad - you can't get their exclusive abilities, but you've got tons to work with already thanks to all the open skill-based ability trees. More than you could have had under the current guild/class system.

Here's my general nutshell for about how this would convert current characters:

Warriors:
- Berserker: A Class specialization in the Pragmatic Combat branch of the Melee tree. Non-occult combat abilities at a variety of public locations (town barracks, Stormholdt courtyard, etc). Offers for Berserkers to take up druidry still stand as current, Dwaedn Wyr to offer some Berserker-specific druidry stuff. (Say it, Ursun. Say it.)
- Dreadnought: Class choice in the Heavy Combat branch of Melee. All current abilities from a variety of locations as above.
- Duelist: Class choice in the Finesse Combat branch of Melee. All pure combat abilities from a variety of locations as above. Acrobatics abilities/skill in public Acrobatics training areas.
- Guardian: Class choice in the Heavy Combat branch of Melee. All current abilities from a variety of locations as above.
- Marauder: Class choice in the Pragmatic Combat branch. All pure combat abilities from a variety of locations as above. Artifice abilities/skill in public Artifice-specific public training areas.
- Nightblade: Class choice in the Finesse Combat branch. Non-occult combat abilities at a variety of locations as above. Stealth abilities/skill in public Stealth-specific public training areas. Sorcery abilities (basic channeling, orb, cloak) no longer Nightblade-specific, will now be more commonly available in a Sorcery-specific training area. (Note: Sorcery and druidry are mutually exclusive, sorry - no druidic-and-also-sorcerous berserkers.)

Adventurers:
- Bard: Class choice based on Music/Acrobatics/Storytelling (any, does not require having all. Dancing to be removed as a skill and made a branch of Acrobatics). Those wishing to learn the Words of Power will need to join the Mummers. Those who already have learned Words of Power would keep them, but their potency would fade over time without getting occasional refresher training by Mummers, so not joining the Mummers essentially means eventually losing the Words.
- Ranger: Class choice based on Bushcraft/Tracking (any). Non-occult abilities at a variety of locations associated with those skills. Offers for Rangers to take up druidry still stand as current. Pondering over some potential ranger-specific druidry abilities.
- Rogue: Class choice based on Artifice. All current abilities from a variety of locations that train associated skills.
- Treasure Hunter: Class choice based on Perception. All current abilities from a variety of locations that train associated skills.

Scholars:
- Arcanist: Class choice based on Arcana. Will need to join the Library of Qamar. Essentially no change. (Library of Qamar is more or less COGG's version of CLOK's University of Elemancy. I'm excited to give it some actual NPCs and personality.)
- Physicker: Class choice based on Physiology/Psychology (any - yes, Medical skill is going to be split. There are some fun abilities in the pipe for both). Will need to join the Library of Qamar. Essentially no change.
- Primalist: Class choice based on Druidry. Will need to join the group associated with the initiation process more formally.
- Warlock: Class choice based on Sorcery. Will need to join Rook Parlour (which will make me no longer feel reluctant releasing their cooler abilities from the past!).

Those who have character concepts that don't fit into any of the above rather specific molds: That's fine! Not everyone needs to be super specialized. There will be ability trees associated with all the skills. Some deeper than others, but it will be more open in terms of realizing a character concept without having to commit to a specific exclusive class and being stuck in quite so narrow a path. Additional class specializations may eventually be added based on some of the other skills, if enough can be thought up to merit them. That said, I don't think every skill needs a specific class associated with it. I think I'm okay with leaving most of the crafting stuff class-less, though having some exclusive branches in there would still be cool to prevent cookie cutters and do-everythings.

(LATER EDIT FOR PEOPLE READING THIS OLDER THREAD: The below paragraph isn't what will be happening; Rooks and Mummers will not count as Society choices. I am leaving the below paragraph in for history, but know that after further pondering I decided to NOT have them count as Society choices.)
Does joining the Mummers or the Library or Rooks count as joining a Society, then? Probably? I'm leaning that way at this point. De-emphasizing guilds and classes, and instead having broad and deep general ability trees available to everyone, makes me a lot more willing to put more abilities into Societies - particularly occult and other specialized knowledge stuff. And do recall that while a character can only join one Society, that doesn't necessarily mean that character can't still work alongside another Society they want to support.
(EDIT: Just to be clear! The above won't be happening, Rooks and Mummers will not count as the single Society choice for a character.

While I'm feeling rambly, I want to revisit that stuff about how the game area was meant to be more of a "small world" setting. I really prefer that type of setting. The world and what happens in it means a lot more that way. Then it's not just a case of "oh, I'll just go to far-flung place XYZ and ignore everything." Or "I don't have to worry about messing up my reputation because I'll just hop to the next town over if things get dicey." It requires people to think about their place in the community and about their actions and how they'll affect their neighbors (who they can try to avoid but can't ever get -too- far from). If an infested horde is swarming around, everyone should be paying attention. They might not be hitting your particular faction today, but what about tomorrow? What if that other faction falls, and then they turn to you next? Even if it's not a direct and immediate concern, it's still something that should be paid attention to.

It also means players can get involved in meaningful things. For instance: The Dominion sounds grand and glorious, but it's literally just getting started. The goal and the dream is grand and glorious, but they're still taking their first steps toward achieving them. The work is just starting, and that means player characters in the Dominion have a chance to be part of the founding and realization of that goal, rather than just being another number in the crowd benefiting from the work of some past faceless NPCs years ago. These are opportunities to be that character who goes down in history as being pivotal to the securing and success of the Dominion dream. That to me is much more interesting than being in a superpower that already established themselves long ago and now it's just trying to maintain the status quo.

And it also means that no group or organization is too big to fail. Again to use the Dominion as an example: They're becoming a dominant power, but considering the state of the Lost Lands that's by no means guaranteed to last. The Dominion can't just sit back and relax and assume everything will be fine as if they're already succeeded. They and their citizens (including player characters!) should feel like they need to get involved, make effort, do work, fight to survive, face the reality that they are very capable of failing to surmount the very real issues and threats of Lost Lands life.

(I'd talk about Shadgard too, but I think it's done pretty well in still feeling like that scrappy group of independents striving to survive in an extremely hostile environment.)

It's a land of limited choices, limited resources, limited living space. Dealing with that and trying to make things work with the options available should be part of the storytelling and part of the fun. There's not going to always be an ideal choice. There's probably not going to be an alternative if one doesn't like what's in front of them at the moment. You have to play with the cards you've been dealt, go make a story of it!

And from a development and staffing point of view: Keeping the scope of the world, the geography, the politics, the factions, etc. under control means we can actually focus on things and make them feel interesting and meaningful and deep. In CLOK, so many people were proud to claim membership in their guild, because guilds had focus and purpose and personality, and thus their members felt that purpose and personality and identity themselves as part of the guild. In COGG, Stormholdt is just a place people go to get training. I get the impression a lot of people view it purely as a meta-mechanic and don't even claim they train there, instead attributing their skills/abilities to backstory or some other alternative explanation. There's probably a character or two out there who has proudly stated that they're a member of Stormholdt, but I don't recall seeing it. And that's understandable, because Stormholdt thus far has been incredibly boring and bland without any vestige of soul or personality beyond being a training dispenser.

But I'm not doing that anymore. I'm focusing on the factions and organizations I love, I'm making them act the way they should instead of trying to remain completely inoffensive and equally applicable to all, I'm going to mix up a couple of the new ones we've had added since to get their own focus and love (again, see: Stormholdt). And I'm also going to offer my very sincere apologies to those who prefer a more open and sandboxy approach where a character can just sort of float about doing whatever they want without commitment or thought to how they might represent or portray their affiliations or the world around them. But that's not the kind of game I enjoy making or running, and if I don't enjoy making and running COGG, why would I keep on doing this?

I know a lot of this has probably read as glum and dour and woeful. This has been as much a therapeutic venting session for me as it has been an attempt to let you all know how I'll be approaching the game going forward and what changes are coming. But I promise that I've never been as excited to work on COGG as I am right now. (Well, maybe except when I first started working on it at all. But that should be a given!) Someone even commented on it a voicechat or two ago, saying I sounded more enthusiastic and excited than usual. That comment actually really helped me realize that yes, I do need to move forward with how I'm feeling, rather than go back to being stuck in generic sandbox try-to-please-everyone mode There's no pleasing everyone, and I was frustrating myself by trying. I've been letting myself have fun over the past few weeks, and it's been such a joy for me. I hope that you all, or at least most of you, have been enjoying things too.

P.S. Some of this may seem like old news to those who have regularly attended the weekly roundtables and some of the impromptu mid-week chats, but I wanted to get all this out here on the BBS for everyone to see.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
tulpa
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Re: Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by tulpa »

This doesn't strike me as glum. It sounds like you're full of energy and hope for the future of the game and it's heartening to read.

I've made comments about the current system that have expressed anxiety or frustration in the past, I hope they haven't contributed to that sense of despondence that you talk about here.

I like to make characters that don't fit in --- or at least I like to think I do. Perhaps a lot of players view their characters as outside the mold and always want to push at the limits of what's feasible/acceptible within class and guild archetypes. I've had fun with that, and it looks like I'll continue to do so under this new, more liberating system.

One last observation. Every player-ran company I've joined has been someone else's darling, and the vision has never quite married up uniformly with how my character views the world. Still, they've recognised the merit in engaging with the people around them that at least have some things in common; there's never going to be perfect accord, but they'll wither without any affiliation at all. That chimes with what you're saying about societies, for me. It's not so much compromise as seeking out new experiences and associates.
Last edited by tulpa on Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Alicron
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Re: Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by Alicron »

I am looking forward to seeing what changes lie ahead, thanks for sharing your thoughts!
jerc
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Re: Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by jerc »

Having missed a lot of recent voice chats, this is all very new and exciting! I really like both the genericization of basic skills/abilities and more character for specializations.

The only thing that gives me some pause is the idea that Mummers/Rooks are potentially must-join societies for their respective specializations, unless they won't be mutually-exclusive with other societies. It seems like a common refrain has been that societies won't provide mechanical advantages that are significant enough that they are basically required for certain classes, so this feels like the exact opposite. For example, a harbinger bard who punctuates their proselytizing with Words of Power seems like a pretty natural character concept, which wouldn't be possible if both are mutually-exclusive societies, unless they were an "unofficial" harbinger.
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Re: Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by Frisbee »

Thank you for that enlightening post, and especially for putting in the extra effort to keep everyone updated regardless of how often they're able to attend OOC meetings.

In my experience, COGG's world has always been interesting to interact with, because of the combined efforts of the amazing staff and playerbase. One thing that most of my characters have admittedly struggled with, however, is lacking a general sense of purpose. My two current ones are at complete opposite ends of this spectrum; one has found a supportive group of associates that provides enough drive for the character not to fade into the background, the other has effectively nothing to contribute to, even as a "proud member of Stormhold." I can see how the three main guilds being as neutral as possible can lead to a lot of their members being aimless, and I am all for changing it up and giving everyone the opportunity to get together with new-found allies and fight for a worthy cause, while also honing their trade in less restricting ways.

As a returning CLOK player, I am incredibly happy to see so much of the old stuff gradually return and mix with the existing COGG awesomeness. Perhaps I am biassed in my view, due to my exclusively positive CLOK experiences, but I firmly stand by it.

Sorry for a somewhat lengthy post. Stay motivated, stay creative, and keep up the fantastic work.
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darkangel
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Re: Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by darkangel »

I too am genuinely excited to see what comes ahead, especially with the guilds not feeling so generalized, and the RP potential it would bring.
as someone who might be edging close to bit of a burnout, this post did a fantastic job in rekindling my interest!
Squeak
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Re: Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by Squeak »

New player here without any experience from CLOK and very limited experience with COGG -

One of the few things that annoyed me coming into COGG was being "guild-locked" for certain skills. Not just Cogg, but any game that really functions that way. It always seems illogical for me to grasp that this is supposed to be "Real Life" for our characters and instead of being able to pick up a lockpicking set from Amazon and going to town, I had to join a Guild that didn't quite mesh with what I was looking for but it was the BEST for what I felt I could work with. I came into the game hoping to make your typical "deep south good ole boy" with a penchant for firearms and mechanisms (I'm from Texas, ya'll) and then having to choose Nightblade as the best possible choice - boy, that really made it difficult.

This talk of skill-trees and skillsets makes me want to continue playing (and don't get me wrong, the people I've met does that, too). It gives an inordinate amount freedom to nitpick my character choices to death, skill-wise, and make EXACTLY what I envisioned when I started researching the game. If I want to join a Society or Guild later for those additional abilities to really make that character shine, I can. Without having to choose the best one to suit my roleplay just to be able to learn the skills I wanted as soon as possible.

I love this idea, and furthermore, while you state your post is full of doom, woe, and whatever, there's hope there. Hope and optimism for a better future for your game and your players (and probably your mental well-being, too). If it makes you happy, man, you get on that horse and ride it till the end.
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Re: Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by Gorth »

I think for anyone who's been interacting with my characters lately, it's very obvious I've been burnt out. But that's irelivant, this isn't about me. What it is about is that i'm excited beyond explanation. I've been holding onto the idea of societies as a springboard to get back into the swing of things and finally start forging my own things with a strong base.

Obligatory but I do think I'm qualified for this: should you need someone to betatest the system, I'm you're man.
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artus
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Re: Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by artus »

Nothing wakes me up as well as reading that skill trees and abilities will no longer be guild exclusiv,e, well, most.
And not to mention that was a whole heap of wholesome post too. As a long time Clok/cogg fan, possibly forever, seeing the game shift somewhere between the old and the new gives that taste of nostalgia and hope. But if we're to go that route, here's one thing I'm slightly concerned about, possibly thing that became a potential problem for Clok too.

There's going to be let's say, someone going oh, so I'm just going to join this guild or whatever for the abilities and then I just don't care. Then the whole trend of if I'm an x, I have to play like y may as well occur. This somehow flashbacks me to the end of doom when every single harbingers on Clok was all horse and morningstar, which, honestly speaking, was very demotivating to deal with due to how futile it was. I may be somewhat too unnerved and anxious though, but I was honestly afraid at that time to even put up with those and seriously hope it doesn't spawn five people using the same build and playing the same way banding together again.
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Bonehead
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Re: Guilds, Societies, Factions, Characters, Skills, Abilities, the Lost Lands, Scope, COGG

Post by Bonehead »

- Berserker: A Class specialization in the Pragmatic Combat branch of the Melee tree. Non-occult combat abilities at a variety of public locations (town barracks, Stormholdt courtyard, etc). Offers for Berserkers to take up druidry still stand as current, Dwaedn Wyr to offer some Berserker-specific druidry stuff. (Say it, Ursun. Say it.)

Oooh. We get the pragmatic tree? BEAR! 🐻
Wut?
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