Ascetic Path society suggestions

Talk about Societies in general that doesn't relate specifically to any particular existing Society.
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Candelori
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Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by Candelori »

I hope it is not too forward of me to start a thread of suggestions for the Ascetic Path society. I will be basing many of my suggestions on the information we have about other Societies and their plans, as well as on my past experience with the Templar in CLOK; my suggestions will thus be more martial-leaning. I will refrain from requesting healing lasers.

-Tasks to cull nethrim appropriate to the Ascetic's skill level.
-Tasks to seek out and disperse lesser nether-hauntings before they take root.
-Tasks to seek out and destroy cursed artifacts that have been heavily corrupted by the nether and are now in danger of causing new hauntings.
-Tasks to seek out a lost or wounded fellow Ascetic NPC and help them back to safety. A callback to the wounded Templar tasks of CLOK.
-Tasks to defend travelers along roads and trails. This should be shared with Wyrvardn, and perhaps the Ascetic version would more often go through nether-corrupted areas.
-Tasks to drive off highwaymen from the roads. This too should be shared with Wyrvardn.
-Tasks to somehow cleanse an individual who has suffered nether-corruption and now desires for it to be removed from them.
-One armor stand and one wall arms racks in the living cell, as per CLOK.
-A morale boost when reciting the Templar Code, limited to once per day. The Ascetics may not be Templar, but the inspiration the former take from the latter and their aspiration to emulate are clear and apparent. Even a small boost would encourage reciting the Code and thus keep it at the fore of the player's mind when playing their Ascetic.
-A morale reduction and explanatory message when taking actions that go against the Edict of St.Vito. This will help keep the Edict and its guidelines at the fore of the player's mind as they play their Ascetic. The explanatory message would minimize the previous incarnation's frustrations when players did not necessarily know why they were being penalized. Perhaps a message such as: "As you take your 20th bite of meat for the day, you feel a pang of guilt as you recall a passage of the Edict of St.Vito you read during your initiation which stated that one should eat meat sparingly."
-An ability to give or at the very least request as a Society service some manner of blessing upon a weapon to make it temporarily more effective against nethrim.
-As previous suggestion, but for armor and protecting against nether damage.
-The Spear of Light ability. I will point out that it is a damaging laser, not a healing one. I am only half joking; while my hopes about this suggestion are not high, it was a rather iconic ability in CLOK that demonstrated a very real reason for such people being focused on nethrim-slaying. I understand this would come bundled with the frustrations that accompany an implementation of player-wielded thaumaturgy, but I cannot resist some small amount of hope.
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Bonehead
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Re: Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by Bonehead »

While these abilities do sound awesome and useful, I do wonder if they might be treading on the toes of stuff that could or should be more the focus of the Anti-netherim Society.

I'm not exactly sure what all or how the Ascetics Society will work, but we might need some more information on them in general so we can come up with more concrete ideas for them
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Kismet
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Re: Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by Kismet »

What was the Templar Code and the Edict of St.Vito?
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Lexx416
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Re: Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by Lexx416 »

Kismet wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:26 am What was the Templar Code and the Edict of St.Vito?
I would take these with a grain of salt, since they're on the wiki for Rias' past project and not this game, but you can find the Templar Code underneath their Membership portion of their old wiki page, and you can find the Edict of St. Vito on the wiki page for the Edict from the same source.

I'd especially take any references to Thaumaturgy or Inner Light there with a huge grain of salt, since Thaumaturgy isn't available to PCs on COGG (and honestly, I don't expect to ever see Thaumaturgy being wielded at all, personally, even by NPCs).
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Rias
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Re: Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by Rias »

Those are some good task ideas! Tasks are a great way to give an organization and its members their feel, and lets PCs feel like they're actually contributing to the cause more than just RP. I do remember the weapon rack addition, and think that can be done here as well. I also really like the idea of the morale stuff in regard to the Code and the Edict. Good way to keep people aware of those. Anti-nether blessing could be neat. I might break out that idea for "spirit candles" from forever ago for some of the suggestions. Spear of Light ... I do worry about that making people want to join for the Light Powers instead of for the RP.

I figured I'd paste (with some updates) some of my recent ramblings from the #GAME channel on the subject:

===== Start ramblings paste =====

Ascetics will likely have a lot of crossover with the anti-nethrim as well as the Wyrvardn. A good plan for some aspirants might be to join one of those Societies first, and potentially be reached out to if they're a good fit for the Ascetics. This would be done on the Society's initiative however, not on the player character's. This would be the rare situation where a character changing their Society might be possible. Please do not get any ideas about switching other Societies. This is only an option because there is very specific overlap. There will not be the option to swap between Anti-Nethrim to Wyrvardn or vice-versa. Only from one of those to the Ascetics. And it is not a guarantee by any means - the Ascetics are very strict regarding behavior and lifestyle and are not required to consider individuals that they feel don't fit into their society's beliefs and guidelines, even if that character thinks they do.

A deliberate part of the feel of the Ascetics is not having all their limitations spelled out and exactly detailed. They'll still have some guidelines written out to follow, but if a person is asking "well how much money is too much money" or "how much meat is too much meat" then they are missing part of the point. That kind of thing can be frustrating and certainly isn't for everyone, and I strongly advise people to steer clear if that kind of thing sounds frustrating rather than interesting. As I said when I posted about the Ascetics as a society, I don't anticipate it being a popular one, but it's here for those who enjoy that sort of thing. People should be interested in joining -for- the lifestyle restrictions and limitations, not -despite- them.

(I will also note that the Ascetics are only a small fraction of Church of Light members or Serafina adherents. They are a niche group and by no means required for a character to be consider themselves a Church member or Serafina follower! This cannot be emphasised enough!)

With our playable area being the Lost Lands, the Ascetics has been more or less "Well - we have these people all hyperfocused on both mental and physical (fitness) discipline, dedicated to promoting compassion and charity and self-reliance and the well-being of mankind. It stands to reason they should be pointed at some of the big problems we have out here. And Serafina -does- worry so about the increasingly excessive nether-corruption and its effects on both the lands and the souls of the inhabitants." Hence them having some of the more "martial" focus making sense.

While introspection and self-improvement are part of the Ascetic lifestyle, so is going out and improving the rest of the lands for the people living in it. Ascetics shouldn't be hermits cloistered away from the rest of the world, though their lifestyle promotes periods of solitude and quite reflection as part of their discipline and exercises. Just not to the point of only focusing on themselves and ignoring their fellow man and the world around them.

===== End ramblings paste =====
Kismet wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:26 am What was the Templar Code and the Edict of St.Vito?
Here's the Templar Code:
A Templar is compassionate.
In their modesty they shun glory.
Their arm upholds the weak.
Their blade defends the helpless.
Their wrath undoes evil.
Their mouth speaks only truth.
Their word is unbreakable.
Their integrity never falters.
Their temperance is unshakable.
Their virtue never wavers.
Their valour sustains them through peril.
(It steals a lot from the Old Code, from the movie Dragonheart. I am not ashamed.)

The Edict needs to be put into a more standardized document, but in general it includes:
- Compassion. One should always show compassion and kindness to others. On the flip side, one can also be savvy to when they are being taken advantage of and refuse to give support in such cases. Giving someone charity in a time of need is one thing. Enabling them to live on continual handouts rather than develop a means of self-reliance is another. Compassion does not mean blind forgiveness or not holding others responsible for their actions.
- Respect. Strive to always show respect to all people. This does not mean allowing others to walk all over you. It is possible to be respectful while also holding someone responsible for their actions. This includes self-respect. The Ascetics tend to get their fair share of members who struggle with self-doubt or even self-loathing and are in need of a second chance at discovering some sort of worth within themselves.
- Honesty. Be honest in all things. This does not mean one cannot keep secrets, nor does it mean it is required to give any information anyone asks for. One can be honest while also maintaining security. There is nothing dishonest about refusing to volunteer information to someone who will misuse it.
- Poverty. One should be able to sustain one's own survival as self-reliance is a key tenet of the Church's teachings, but money isn't the only way to achieve that. An emergency stash might be something like enough to cover replacing a single piece of lost clothing or broken armor. Not buying an entire suit of armor at once, or buying someone a house. Monetary aid is not what the Church (or the Ascetics) are about. There are plenty of organizations that provide monetary aid charity already. The Church can do without having piles of reserve money, and are in fact actively against the hoarding of money, even if in the name of emergency preparedness. A charitable and compassionate community will care for someone in need even if they don't have money. (To this point, I've often considered taking the donation box out of the chapel in Shadgard, but it's such an old feature from early CLOK before any of this was really developed that I haven't done so yet.)
- Humility. Do good deeds for the good of the deed and its positive impact on your fellow man. Don't do things for the fame or the glory or the recognition. Do not confuse honor for social standing or renown. Avoid smugness, arrogance, and elitism.
- Modesty. Avoid apparel, tools, gear, etc. that are opulent or luxurious. There's no practical purpose to gold cufflinks or gem-studded bracelets. Price is not always what determines this: A celestium sword would be worth a fortune monetarily, but if one came into the possession of an Ascetic it would be a very useful tool in fighting the nethrim. If an Ascetic found themselves loving it for its monetary value or the looks and comments they got over it, then it would become a problem. Rationalizing to justify having fancier or more luxurious things is clearly not understanding the spirit of the rule. Arguing that a solid gold paperweight is heavier and so better at holding things down, to give an exaggerated example. False modesty is both obvious and abhorrent.
- Sanctity of life. Always consider whether a situation could be solved without violence (but also accept that sometimes violence is necessary. It's a crazy world we live in). Avoid goods and activities that involve the death of a sentient creature. Eat meat sparingly (generally only if there is no other choice), avoid wearing leather or fur, etc. (Tip: If you have to debate whether something is "sentient" or not and whether it breaks this rule or not to kill it, you're probably not getting the spirit of this one.) Avoid over-utilizing goods and activities that involve the death of any life (excessive logging, foraging, etc).
- Sanctity of the world. Similar to the above, but applies to the environment and land in general. Don't cause damage to an environment just because it has no or minimal living organisms in it. A natural cavern of beautiful rock formations has its own spirit and worth even if there aren't any plants or animals living in it. Try to preserve it as much as possible even if there are veins of exceptionally pure iron in it to be mined, and maybe even leave it completely unspoiled if that iron isn't absolutely necessary to some greater cause right this moment.
- Discipline and Willpower. Discipline is not only about practicality, but about maintaining self-control and regulating one's desires, and learning to find contentment in less and simplicity. Always maintain control over one's own mental faculties. Strong drinks and other mind-altering substances are forbidden.
- Peace. One should strive to be able to find a significant measure of peace in one's lifestyle and the activities one spends time participating in. This includes both effort and dedication to worthy causes as well as a balance of leisure time and activities and self-care. Peace is not to be confused with complacency, nor contentment with laziness, but neither should one be unhappy without some sense of constant progression or limitless ambition.

Note regarding the Edict: Not all of the guidelines are for strictly practical reasons. A big part of it is developing willpower, discipline, and the ability to find contentment with less.

It's important to note that the Code and the Edict are -not- meant to be taken as "if you break any of these rules you are a failure, you lost your chance, goodbye." It's an impossible standard, practically speaking. Ascetics (and the Templar and Monks that came before them) are still expected to strive toward holding that impossible standard anyway, though. This is one of the things a lot of players struggled with. Many felt frustrated by the impossible standard and didn't quite grasp that it was the striving to adhere to it that was the important part, and that all were expected to fail to some degree or other at some point, because they're all human. Dealing with the failures (and hopefully learning from them) is a significant part of the experience. It's meant to be an IC struggle, and may well be an OOC one as well, but if it seems like it might be too much of the latter for anyone considering this path, that is likely an indication that the Ascetics aren't a good choice for their character. This is just an optional path in a game for those who enjoy this type of roleplay. It is not a judgment on the players themselves.

P.S. Because it seems to come up: None of the Edict of St.Vito, the Templar Code, or the Ascetic's Path forbid intimate relationships or marriage.
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Kismet
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Re: Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by Kismet »

I don't see anything in there that prohibits someone from being a ditsy, hyperactive barmaid.
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Karjus
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Re: Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by Karjus »

Kismet wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:48 pm I don't see anything in there that prohibits someone from being a ditsy, hyperactive barmaid.
Beyond the fact said organization wouldn't invite one to join in the first place? With all the addendums and caveats in posts/information regarding the Ascetics I think one thing people really need to take away is that if they're not going to fit into the mold and seek to push boundaries then they're not going to become one. While someone might go through enough personal growth to reach the point they get there, I imagine if they'd be able to be stereotyped as "Ditsy Barmaid" to begin with by the time they were actually ready to join said order then it wouldn't be a fitting label any more.

This sounds like something that has a very specific aesthetic to it, and not every character is going to belong.
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tulpa
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Re: Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by tulpa »

I'm trying to be circumspect about the Ascetic Path and consider carefully if it is something I want to go for, but I can't help being quite excited about it all as it takes shape.

Just a ramble about thaumaturgy, after the comments on the Spear of Light ability. I never did play CLOK, but I do play a character that already invokes a lot of light/darkness imagery. They've been around a few months now, and at this point I find I'm quite anxious to develop that stuff in a more nuanced way and rely less on stereotypical tropes. I don't need these lasers to play with light and dark, I've got plenty (possibly too much) of that as it is!

I really like that Miguel has a reasoned, individual take on Nether while identifying with the Church; that's definitely the sort of content that makes COGG stand out for me. So, yeah, I can't see actual IG Thaumaturgy holding my interest in light of this, and it would put me off both the Ascetic Path and possibly playing that character (so, no pressure). I want room for outlandish theories, philosophising about the nature of Inner Light, subtle understatement ... I'm not personally playing COGG for very literal representations of fantastical concepts. I probably needn't worry, but Rias doesn't seem to be using all caps any more to underline certain principles, so I thought I'd make my views plain.

Given the above, I do have a question (questions, maybe?) about the Ascetic Path: how much "philosophising", theorising about the role of mankind, study and research are they going to tolerate (or encourage?) Are these people opting for asceticism as a means of discovering principles to abide by (not just arriving at a better understanding of their inner self --- how much room do they have for expressing opinions on what that might mean, for feeling it out?) How much influence do they have over the tenets and shape of the Church as an institution? Are they pioneers/trailblazers setting an example, or anchoritic oddities, or something else?
Kismet
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Re: Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by Kismet »

Karjus wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:48 am This sounds like something that has a very specific aesthetic to it, and not every character is going to belong.
If the Ascetics reject someone who follows their tenets but doesn't fit their aesthetic, that in itself might be a violation the code. This is an organization about helping and protecting people, not being stoic in brown robes.
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Karjus
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Re: Ascetic Path society suggestions

Post by Karjus »

Kismet wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:43 am
Karjus wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:48 am This sounds like something that has a very specific aesthetic to it, and not every character is going to belong.
If the Ascetics reject someone who follows their tenets but doesn't fit their aesthetic, that in itself might be a violation the code. This is an organization about helping and protecting people, not being stoic in brown robes.
I mean... that kind of is in there?
- Karjus

Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
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