The Hardships of Logging. Buffs, Reversions, General Enjoyment Increases.

[Gorth]

This is probably going to sound kind of aggressive, and I'm sorry for that. But hear me out.

02/08/23 Woodworking: Large logs that have had split logs chopped from them can no longer be carved into hewn timbers.

Ahem. Why? I understand that chopping a bunch of split logs off of a big log and then further carving that into a timber and expecting it to give you eight planks like a normal one is a bit game-y, but Construction, in general, is pretty Game-y. The material costs for things are way out of whack, require huge time, tool and patience investments, and a wig once you've ripped your hair out trying to properly logisticize everything needed and then find out you're a small plank short. Also, chopping a tree is lonely. People don't want to do it with you, and so that time you spend is usually without RP or anything.

This change on it's own isn't the end of the world, but as pointed out by a friend, before this, you could make a handcart out of a single small tree. Now, you're just barely unable. This is just an example, but it rather brought things into perspective for me.

I'm not going to run numbers in this post, but construction is not a money making skill. Neither is logging. What you can do in two hours can be done in ten minutes with Leatherworking, or Metalworking, or lockpicking, or combat, or even masonry. I'm not suggesting that logging or construction should be the most productive, or even high tier, but it should feel at least useful.

We all know the things I'm saying. If more experienced people wish to chip in with specifics, be my guest. My point is...can we revert this change, maybe? And or, how about some buffs. Like, what if a timber gave twelve long planks? Not game changing, I'd think. It would give builders a little more room to work and to make money for all of the invested time of felling and chopping.

[Rias]

Ahem. Why?

I thought it was a fairly obvious oversight that it was possible to chop a log into several split logs and then use the last nub of the remains to make an entire full-length hewn timber. Hewn timbers are assumed to be the full length of the logs they're made from.

Construction and woodcutting can certainly use some work, but I don't feel that deliberately overlooking or reverting bugfixes is the right way to address that.

[Gorth]

Yes, I agree in that aspect. Problem is, of course, all of my other points. Blocks are very useful, so that is yet another thing you need large logs for, where the timber stream is already very limitted. Reverting that bug fix was only one of my suggestions, though. I'd like to know people's thoughts on the other's. I'll continue to dump thoughts and ideas here as I come up with them, because Construction and logging are perhaps my second favorite system, behind general combat.

[Firerose]

@Gorth
I don't find this post aggressive at all. You make some good points, and I just want you to know I feel bad for all of us talking about it on question, and then the change happening.
The number of split logs you can get from a log, compared to one timber, which equates to eight long planks, looking at weights alongside, it would make sense that, depending on the size of the log, you should be able to cut, say, ten split logs before timbering it. This wouldn't feel quite so limiting, I'd think.

@rias
What if the log is from a particularly large or massive tree? Could logs be made as small, medium, large, with a specific limit to how many planks their timbers could produce?
I don't have a sighted person's perspective on how big logs actually are, how much could be taken from them and used for planks/firewood/other carving. I'm not even sure how realistic it would be to learn all that, since the game opperates separate from real-life in this craft, as far as I can tell--there have to be numbers, else the code doesn't know how to behave, in many cases. please take that literally; it's not meant to be snide or sarcastic.

[Firesong]

I definitely think that it would be incredibly helpful to know how much of the log you've interacted with. For example: it would be lovely if I could look at my partially chopped, partially crafted, large, fir log, partially chopped, I'm not kidding, and know that I'd use about half of it.

[Rias]

What if the log is from a particularly large or massive tree? Could logs be made as small, medium, large, with a specific limit to how many planks their timbers could produce?

Larger trees give more logs, acting as a simple way to give more material for larger trees. I think number of logs is an easier way to go than having to track and juggle multiple different classes of log. That's already kind of a pain with branches.

I definitely think that it would be incredibly helpful to know how much of the log you've interacted with.

Yeah, I agree, and requests for this kind of thing haven't been uncommon. I already stealthed in an update so partially-chopped logs show that they're "partially-chopped" to help their state be more obvious. Step one of making the status of logs etc. more clear!

[artus]

I still would like to request reduction in branch numbers though when chopping trees. It's pretty insane as it is especially when chopping large. You can do it for four hours straight with like 3-4 people and still half done with like 11 bundles of 33 large branches each on the ground, flooding the market with little place to store them. It may as well fix item influx on the server when someone (actually me too) happens to carve like 500 wedges out of a trillion branches that seem infinite and still has like 20 more to go after, and with the partially carved branches being an item individually, creating 33 individual branches instead of a bundle of 33 like the original. Part of game item/market crash may have something to do with this. Just some thought though.

[Rias]

Yeah, the branch numbers need to be reduced for sure. I think that's one of the biggest time sinks in the woodcutting process. That'll make it quicker to reduce the branches to get to the chopping the logs off and hauling said logs to the local sawmill for quicker processing into timbers and planks!

[Staz]

I'm the sort of number crunchy person who enjoys logisticizing and has sunk more hours into woodcutting and construction than I'd care to think about as a result of that.

Woodcutting and Construction just IS CRUNCHY. It's far, far, FAR more numerical than any other vocation in the game. You're constantly paying attention to multiples of 2 as you organize timbers, you're constantly doing the figures on how many split logs you'll need at five blocks per log. The whole setup feels almost tailor-made for the kind of mechanics junkie who likes to make spreadsheets about the games they play.

Which is why it's almost a cruel joke what those spreadsheets say, after they're compiled.

I won't trot out all the charts and graphs, but here are a few examples of what I mean. If you bother to spend an afternoon experimenting, you find that leatherworking, cooking, are weaving are high earners with even one skill point, netting over 10k per hour easily. Metalworking can manage about 8k per hour. Masonry, woodworking, and hunting animals can manage around 4k with the right recipe.

And in the same hour, a woodcutter can just about have one small tree felled and processed and have the stump pulled IF they have mule, rope, logging axe, etc. That tree will have a little under 2k riln worth of branches on it and one log worth around 600 riln depending on how it is processed. So, to do it the /right/ way where you leave no stump behind, you're dozens of thousands of riln in the hole and earning about 2.6k per hour.

So if you're a woodcutter, logically you'd branch out to construction. The handcart takes about 5 hours to make including felling trees and sells for 30-40k. A maximum earning of 8k per hour, except you have to consign it and hope someone needs one. Selling directly to the Market cuts your profits in half. This is one of the premier recipes available to high-level builders.

Another is the large shed, which you might be able to sell for 60k if someone needs one. It takes at least four hours to fell enough trees for the lumber alone, likely more since it requires 12.5 logs, and then another hour and a half to build, leaving you earning, at best, a little over 10k per hour.

For the investment of six hundred skill points and six to eight hours of real life time, your woodcutter can finally make as much as a beginner leatherworker.

And let me say, as someone who managed to find a neat little trick to shave 45 minutes off the handcart recipe, who was only too excited to share with a new woodcutter to promote enthusiasm for a profession I adore that is punishingly dull and unlucrative, the swift and compassionless punishment of watching my goodwill turn into an instant nerf does sting.

Construction is very much all stick, no carrot. Players hardly buy consigned items leaving you beholden to a market that deems a mismatched footlocker worth the same as an amberwood one, which is to say, a couple hundred riln. To think this profession would be one deemed in need of such strict policing is frankly bizarre to me.

[Staz]

I think number of logs is an easier way to go than having to track and juggle multiple different classes of log.

Except this basically is an IRL punishment for biting off more than you can chew because each extra log costs you ten minutes to carve, and that much time or more to haul away. Cleaning up the logs after felling a massive tree is an endeavor of multiple hours, your reward for... completing an endeavor of even more hours, lol