The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Because there are too many crafting/profession skills for each to have its own forum.
Staz
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:54 pm

Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Staz »

To build off previous reply, if workshops were given expanded facilities for artisans, I can think of a few nice perks in line with the concept of a skilled professional.

1. Batch Crafting

This has been requested before, but setting your character up natively to work on the same recipe multiple times or work on a series of recipes without having to type the individual crafting commands would be great. This can be accomplished easily through triggers, but not everyone knows/enjoys setting those up or even adding premade ones to the game.

2. Craft to Market

Artisans are recognized as skilled businesspersons by the towns/workshops they inhabit. Thanks to the prestige that comes with the guild membership, or maybe high skill level/end-game ability, artisans can receive a quote from the market for a potential craft and choose to have it automatically sold. IC, items could be carried off by guild pages, workshop employees, or even just some flavor text about the character themself going to the Market and returning. Alternatively, there could be flavor text containers functioning as "outboxes" where flavor text has workshop employees/PCs place items that are crafted to Market, and OOC the item just auto-sells.

With there being multiple markets in the game, it might be neat if this and #3 were unlocked via some kind of extended trade-based quest chain, but that's me adding one more pie in the sky. :P

3. Quick Resupply

Companion to the idea of being able to send items to the Market automatically, artisans could also receive needed supplies if they are in the appropriate workshop. This would come into play after the crafting command is entered, in the event that an artisan is missing one or more ingredients for the craft.

It might look something like this: You go to the tannery workroom with some duster-cut leather and type leatherwork twice, but you only have 5/10 buttons. If there are at least 5 buttons at the Market, you are automatically presented the same results you'd receive at the Market if you typed "order 5 button," and buying them would automatically begin leatherworking the duster. If there weren't enough supplies on the Market, you'd instead be given a prompt to craft some or seek out an appropriate crafter to help you.

4. Profit Splitting??

Along with the idea of team crafting and crafting to Market, you could of course also have a team craft-to-Market mechanic. I'm thinking of this in the context of enormous, complex, and lengthy projects for upper-tier Artisans.

So in this example, the original Artisan might start the recipe, then while working on it they could type something like "hirehelp <PC> wage 2000 steps 300," which would pay a flat rate of 2000 riln for assistance with crafting 300 steps of the recipe. They might also type something like "hirehelp <PC> wage 20% steps 30%" to pay 20% of the sale price and have the assistant work for 30% of the total steps, which would allow hired artisan helpers to know how much of the work they did proportional to the pay they got.

Also, if someone accepts a hire offer, they can craft or rest as needed, but can no longer leave the workshop. They'd get a message saying something like, "You haven't finished helping <hiring artisan> craft their <partially-crafted item> yet!" There would be a command like "jobstop" or "helpstop" that would formally quit the task, maybe granting partial pay?

Artisans who hire help would also need a command to remove unwanted helpers, mainly to deal with people AFKing during long crafts where the primary crafter wanted to go do something else. This might work something like entering "unhire <name> pay 500" to remove someone from the task and pay them 500 riln. If they don't respond to the offer within 5 minutes, it is automatically accepted.

----

I'm not under any illusion of such drastic changes actually making it into the game, but I like spitballing about these things because I am so excited for the Artisan Guild. I think it will be popular, and this is the sort of evolution you see in bustling towns when there is a glut of high-skill craftsmen/creatives.

Also, adding mechanical reasons to stick around in workshops promotes RP, in my experience. A ton of the RP I've had on my crafting characters has come from them being in the forge or weaver's while other people filed in and out. Having the best/most valuable crafting projects require extended periods actively working in a workshop greatly increases the rate of newbies getting to know people IC who can mentor them in a profession, too.
Navi
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:07 am

Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Navi »

Construction requires multiple crafts contributing specific parts to the overall product which is put together by a single individual.
As I said, having multiple persons working on a single product is not realistic. When you go to a mechanic shop and two people work on changing your tires, if one is faster than the other, the second one doesn't then join in on the first one's work to help them go even faster. In this scenario, this assignment is split into four sections, changing the first, second, third, and forth tires. Each one does the single task assigned to them. They don't combine their efforts to make the current task go faster. There's only one tool per task. Maybe if you were building a house, but I believe this is already possible with large construction products like sheds and such. If not, I would agree that it would be beneficial, but seeing as most of these only take a few minutes as it is, there's not much of a need IMO I hope this clarifies my post a bit more.
wander without wanting, thrust into lands unknown. the shadows shift and change, and the worlds with them.
I'm not a soldier but I'm fighting
Can you hear me through the silence?
I won't give up 'cause there will be a day
We'll meet again
Staz
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:54 pm

Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Staz »

Oh, I entirely agree that the mechanic I was proposing is not needed for crafting times to be reasonable as things stand now. I had just read something about high-end crafts taking days to complete, and thought it would be ideal for players to have a way to RP out of such a dull experience.

I grasp your meaning regarding the mechanic example -- I think I tend to think of "getting the tires changed" as one task, rather than four small tasks that complete an overall process. ...That's probably why tend to play multi-crafters so often, now that I think about it... Chopping down the tree and carving it and forging the nails and assembling the woodshed all strike me as one big process. Bit of an oversight on my part not taking into account most people don't treat it that way at all.
User avatar
Lexx416
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Lexx416 »

Staz wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:31 am Oh, I entirely agree that the mechanic I was proposing is not needed for crafting times to be reasonable as things stand now. I had just read something about high-end crafts taking days to complete, and thought it would be ideal for players to have a way to RP out of such a dull experience.

I think if what "high-end crafts taking days" means is that "to achieve quality above Fine, it may take upwards of a day or more to complete the craft", that there shouldn't be ways to lower that time investment (beyond individual skill, to a limited degree). One of the only reasons that handcarts sell for as much as they do is because they're a time investment, and if it takes 5 days to make a top tier Exquisite sword (I'm assuming exquisite will be the highest quality level that crafters can reasonably and consistently attain), but folks are able to group together and knock that down to 1 day, it means we'll see an absolute flood of that quality sword out there.

That makes it less special, and it makes it less meaningful and impactful. Especially if lower-skilled crafters can get in on it, without any fear of making the crafting process go awry from their inexperience. I think for getting lower-skilled crafters involved, currently, just outsourcing minor-component work to them should be the go-to "how can I get people involved in my craft" move.

I think that delegating minor tasks in the crafting process is a better way, overall, of promoting RP and community personally. And I think when the Quality code is fleshed out, and when folks are able to train their crafting skills higher than 400 (probably whenever the Skill Tree stuff mentioned here is implemented) , that the "jacks of all trades" crafters who are used to making the top-tier (currently) stuff will probably have to decide to either craft everything adequately, or focusing on a single craft to obtain the "high end crafts".



If what you mean by the "high-end crafts taking days" is that it'll be lots of fiddly work (also possible!), then I think it's still much of the same - normalize outsourcing minor-components to other crafters, especially for cross-disciplinary crafting ventures.
"You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods... Remnants of an older time they be, living few and secretly, wild and wary as beasts."
Staz
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:54 pm

Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Staz »

Lexx416 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:52 am
I think if what "high-end crafts taking days" means is that "to achieve quality above Fine, it may take upwards of a day or more to complete the craft", that there shouldn't be ways to lower that time investment (beyond individual skill, to a limited degree). One of the only reasons that handcarts sell for as much as they do is because they're a time investment, and if it takes 5 days to make a top tier Exquisite sword (I'm assuming exquisite will be the highest quality level that crafters can reasonably and consistently attain), but folks are able to group together and knock that down to 1 day, it means we'll see an absolute flood of that quality sword out there.

That makes it less special, and it makes it less meaningful and impactful. Especially if lower-skilled crafters can get in on it, without any fear of making the crafting process go awry from their inexperience. I think for getting lower-skilled crafters involved, currently, just outsourcing minor-component work to them should be the go-to "how can I get people involved in my craft" move.

...

If what you mean by the "high-end crafts taking days" is that it'll be lots of fiddly work (also possible!), then I think it's still much of the same - normalize outsourcing minor-components to other crafters, especially for cross-disciplinary crafting ventures.
A few thoughts here! Regarding handcarts: they aren't as much of a time investment mechanically as it may seem. You can craft one in around 3-4 hours depending on your ability to restore energy and sit in the same place doing something dull for so long. Realistically, six hours is more than enough time to gather materials, craft without any energy buffing abilities, and take a snack break or two.

Part of why handcarts sell so well and are rarely put up for sale without being requested isn't purely the time investment, it's horrific boredom of crafting one. When you're crafting a handcart, you're much more likely to take some supplies with you while you do other things and make stuff here and there, unless you're watching a movie or something on one monitor and can run the crafts on the other.

This does promote rarity, but it makes the prospect of being a lucrative construction-focused crafter just miserable. Sure you're getting money, but you're getting it in exchange for not getting to enjoy the rest of the game and having your RP seriously curtailed unless you build out in a public place... where the RP is likely to be people complaining about the mess and noise. :P

You can outsource parts to other crafters, but speaking from experience, no one wants to make wheel felloes or wheel hubs in massive supply, on short notice, or in an immediate time-frame. Plus, that digs into the profits on a craft that already takes far more time than a large animal shed and sells for less.

What I'd like to be considered more than a specific time-saving cooperation system is just the idea of systematizing constructions/complex crafts in general. Having a central location like a workshop that has mechanics to make collaboration a little easier or more automatic would go a long way towards getting newbies both more aware of these jobs and more likely to take them IMHO.

I'm looking for a way for crafting to not feel as much like IRL work, especially considering the proposal for such long crafting times is bundled together with an awesome end-game level of skill that should be rewarded with more enjoyment. There's a reason I've played a ton of characters who got to the level of building handcarts but I've probably built less than two-dozen handcarts in the 9-10 mos I've been playing.

If the craft can be stopped and started, then I could see a 5 day timer ending up more like a once a month craft broken up for RP, which would work out great. But it would still result in such items flooding the market eventually. So you also need /some/ kind of bottleneck other than just time.

Other options would include having additional requirements for top-tier crafting other than skill levels. For example, when guild-leadership type roles are implemented, maybe you have to have a certain rank to even try to make exquisite items. Maybe you can't make an exquisite sword /without/ five max-skill weaponsmiths doing the five days of labor.

if a regular handcart costs ~35k in the player market, and you want to keep these items incredibly rare and sought-after, then that would be one way to do it. The labor cost alone would be in the millions, not to mention whatever elusive materials would need to be painstakingly squirreled away for such a project.

You might also limit the number of superior/exquisite items that can exist in total, requiring one to be sacrificed in some manner when the cap is reached. (Or just limit how many can be on the Markets at one time, but that does nothing to stop players trading them in-person.)

Or, you could have items of a quality higher than Fine require appraisal/authentication by some outside agency which takes time/costs money before they can be sold. That might be a solution that only really fits Mistral, though.

Mainly I'm excited to see so much conversation about Artisans and crafting, it's easily my favorite part of the game. I like just spitting my ideas out, so I'm sorry if it's irritating or anything. Most of all I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to demand some feature or system be added, I just get excited.
Staz
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:54 pm

Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Staz »

Staz wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:43 am
Lexx416 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:52 am
I think if what "high-end crafts taking days" means is that "to achieve quality above Fine, it may take upwards of a day or more to complete the craft", that there shouldn't be ways to lower that time investment (beyond individual skill, to a limited degree). One of the only reasons that handcarts sell for as much as they do is because they're a time investment, and if it takes 5 days to make a top tier Exquisite sword (I'm assuming exquisite will be the highest quality level that crafters can reasonably and consistently attain), but folks are able to group together and knock that down to 1 day, it means we'll see an absolute flood of that quality sword out there.

That makes it less special, and it makes it less meaningful and impactful. Especially if lower-skilled crafters can get in on it, without any fear of making the crafting process go awry from their inexperience. I think for getting lower-skilled crafters involved, currently, just outsourcing minor-component work to them should be the go-to "how can I get people involved in my craft" move.

...

If what you mean by the "high-end crafts taking days" is that it'll be lots of fiddly work (also possible!), then I think it's still much of the same - normalize outsourcing minor-components to other crafters, especially for cross-disciplinary crafting ventures.
A few thoughts here! Regarding handcarts: they aren't as much of a time investment mechanically as it may seem. You can craft one in around 3-4 hours depending on your ability to restore energy and sit in the same place doing something dull for so long. Realistically, six hours is more than enough time to gather materials, craft without any energy buffing abilities, and take a snack break or two.

Part of why handcarts sell so well and are rarely put up for sale without being requested isn't purely the time investment, it's horrific boredom of crafting one. When you're crafting a handcart, you're much more likely to take some supplies with you while you do other things and make stuff here and there, unless you're watching a movie or something on one monitor and can run the crafts on the other.

This does promote rarity, but it makes the prospect of being a lucrative construction-focused crafter just miserable. Sure you're getting money, but you're getting it in exchange for not getting to enjoy the rest of the game and having your RP seriously curtailed unless you build out in a public place... where the RP is likely to be people complaining about the mess and noise. :P

You can outsource parts to other crafters, but speaking from experience, no one wants to make wheel felloes or wheel hubs in massive supply, on short notice, or in an immediate time-frame. Plus, that digs into the profits on a craft that already takes far more time than a large animal shed and sells for less.

What I'd like to be considered more than a specific time-saving cooperation system is just the idea of systematizing constructions/complex crafts in general. Having a central location like a workshop that has mechanics to make collaboration a little easier or more automatic would go a long way towards getting newbies both more aware of these jobs and more likely to take them IMHO.

---

I may be biased, also, as the last MUD I played (thought by now it was a long, long time ago) had crafting guilds where players collectively set prices and policies for who could craft what and what could be sold to whom. It was far from perfect, but it made the grind and time investment in crafting feel much more involved and purposeful, and really fed a lot of energy into roleplay that otherwise could easily have just been crafting fifty sets of vambraces by yourself because they sell well.

Another neat idea would be to have a Market that goes through trends over time. Maybe not a huge variance on every item, but different shades of brachelyr scale armor could be considered hot (or not) with commensurate changes in coded pricing. Maybe Shadgardian foodies are currently going ga-ga for pork belly, and peccary meat sells at a premium. Maybe when the weather is cold, rimeveil goods don't sell as well because it's abundant, but they're all the rage in summer when wechuge furs fall totally out of fashion.

This would affect more than just crafters and contribute to the feeling of a "living" market, I think, but most importantly it would drive people to compete and cooperate in the rush for a quick profit. The market only takes so many of the same item, so you want to get in on the ground floor, but this means forming a roster of hunters, farmers, warriors, etc that you can call on to help you on short notice. Different cliques would then have to compete over the same limited resources in some cases. Either way, more people are interacting and spurring their stories forward, with crafters/artisans playing a key role.

That sort of "social mover" element of large-scale, slow/long-term roleplay impact would definitely make it worth having to wait days or even weeks for some crafts. You aren't simply grinding skills for mechanical rewards, you're motivated to form networks, bring depth and clarity to your characterization, and create a unique reputation that goes beyond a craftmark. Many long-time crafters in the game have already done this organically, but I think a mechanical push in that direction might not go amiss.

For the non-artisan, it adds intrigue as well. You might amass precious materials and millions of coins, but now you have to weigh which weaponsmith you'll give your business, since you might make powerful enemies if you choose wrong. If your armor sports the craftmark of someone who is known to have sorcerors for patrons, will the Shadgardians distrust you? But what if they're the only one who can make you a complete Superior amethyst scale armor set? Would your character do business with them? If not, would they make a moral compromise for such an opportunity? Angst! Drama! Implications!

---

Basically, I'm looking for a way for crafting to not feel as much like IRL work, especially considering the proposal for such long crafting times is bundled together with an awesome end-game level of skill that should be rewarded with more enjoyment. There's a reason I've played a ton of characters who got to the level of building handcarts but I've probably built less than two-dozen handcarts in the 9-10 mos I've been playing.

If the craft can be stopped and started, then I could see a 5 day timer ending up more like a once a month craft broken up for RP, which would work out great. But it would still result in such items flooding the market eventually. So you also need /some/ kind of bottleneck other than just time.

Other options would include having additional requirements for top-tier crafting other than skill levels. For example, when guild-leadership type roles are implemented, maybe you have to have a certain rank to even try to make exquisite items. Maybe you can't make an exquisite sword /without/ five max-skill weaponsmiths doing the five days of labor.

if a regular handcart costs ~35k in the player market, and you want to keep these items incredibly rare and sought-after, then that would be one way to do it. The labor cost alone would be in the millions, not to mention whatever elusive materials would need to be painstakingly squirreled away for such a project.

You might also limit the number of superior/exquisite items that can exist in total, requiring one to be sacrificed in some manner when the cap is reached. (Or just limit how many can be on the Markets at one time, but that does nothing to stop players trading them in-person.)

Or, you could have items of a quality higher than Fine require appraisal/authentication by some outside agency which takes time/costs money before they can be sold. That might be a solution that only really fits Mistral, though.

Mainly I'm excited to see so much conversation about Artisans and crafting, it's easily my favorite part of the game. I like just spitting my ideas out, so I'm sorry if it's irritating or anything. Most of all I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to demand some feature or system be added, I just get excited.
Gorth
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:53 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Gorth »

Sure you're getting money, but you're getting it in exchange for not getting to enjoy the rest of the game and having your RP seriously curtailed unless you build out in a public place... where the RP is likely to be people complaining about the mess and noise. :P
This is a major factor of my opinions toward crafting in general. Pretty much everything you do is solitary. Metalworking and weaving are the only differences, really, as it's done in a specific place, but both of which are usually just people starting a script or auto-repeating task and stepping away from a quick snack or something. You know why? Because it's boring and has little to actually do, especially with people.

I made a character who' point was to be a leatherworker, and spent my first 1,000 points only on leatherworking. It was fun, but only because I got RP that was totally not related to my craft. After I'd gained fine quality, I couldn't get any business because people already had preferred crafters who they'd known for a long time and who charged a lot less because they already had lots of money.

This is not a specific example, I've done this multiple times as experiments, and it usually always turns out the same. I've no idea how to fix this, and maybe it's just a personal problem, but I know I've talked to lots of people who've experienced the same.

TL:DR: I believe that, should the Artisan Guild become a thing, a large focus of it's content creating people should be how to foster cooperation and compitition in personal or general markets.
:undm_scales_key: :shagerd:
Proud owner of the ten thousandth post.
User avatar
Lexx416
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Lexx416 »

I think it'd be cool to see a toggle-able or channeled ability for Artisans that temporarily increases either their warmth or resistance to cold damage as long as they are in Crafting Roundtime, with the added caveat of increasing the energy consumption per repetition by a fair bit - I got this idea thinking about how moving about and working in the cold (when you're already properly insulated/dressed) can help keep you warmer, and I think it'd be a cool speciality for Artisans! Not enough to keep them warm naked, but it'd be nice if a dedicated artisan didn't have to build a fire every time they wanted to work on their farm, or out in the woods, etc..
"You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods... Remnants of an older time they be, living few and secretly, wild and wary as beasts."
Post Reply