The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Because there are too many crafting/profession skills for each to have its own forum.
Gorth
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Gorth »

shewel wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:36 am
Gorth wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:18 amsort of invalidates non-craft SPEKT builds
I haven't been attending these. What is a non-craft SPEKT build? Just trying to understand the nature of the concern broadly.
A character not Artisan Guilded, was my intention, there. I would consider myself built with the intention to craft good leather, if I, even as a Warrior, put 400 ranks into leatherworking.
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Lexx416
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Lexx416 »

I think it's 100% fair that people who join the artisans, and devote all of their skills and abilities towards crafting, just be better at crafting to the same degree that Warriors are better at combat over other classes. It represents an opportunity cost, and allows people who WANT to craft their own pretty good goods to either settle for "fine" goods (assuming fine remains the relative at 400 expected quality), or allow them to sell to newer players (or, to play ranger as a way to specialize, for instance, in woodworking or leatherworking while keeping higher combat rolls, even sans the abilities).

I think a good fix for most people that want to specialize in crafting, but felt pressured to pick a guild and class instead of waiting, would be for Rias and the staff to be fairly liberal in handing out rerolls for people that want to reroll INTO the Artisan guild on a case-by-case basis. That doesn't fix the potential demoralization for people that want to stick with their current chosen Guild and Class, but I think it's egregiously unfair to allow non-specialized crafters to craft on the same level as specialized crafters, just as I think it'd be egregiously unfair for non-warriors to be able to fight on the same level as specialized warriors and fighters.

I can't explore every area I want to on Mack, because I chose to be a non-combat Ranger with a spread of skills. So I have to find someone who can guard me to experience parts of the game that I can't stealth through effectively. That's how I overall view this situation - folks just have to choose what they want their focus to be on, because it isn't fair to someone who allocates all of their resources to crafting to be on par with someone who allocates a small portion of their resources to crafting but is still able to max out combat skills. I'd be pretty annoyed, for example, if there was a 700 Climb Check that people could bypass without investing 700 in the Climb Skill like I have.
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Gorth »

This is fair, for sure. It doesn't really entirely address that, because of riln surplus, four hundred skill people probably will only be directly selling to new players, if that. Which is alright, i suppose. If it comes to that it does, I'd just like that not to be a thing because it's not going to feel good. But I do agree about opportunity cost, and I still like the concept of a crafting guild, especially if it's non-standard nd not just blacksmith, cloth guy, yarn guy, etcetera.
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Karjus
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Karjus »

Lexx416 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:44 am I think it's 100% fair that people who join the artisans, and devote all of their skills and abilities towards crafting, just be better at crafting to the same degree that Warriors are better at combat over other classes. It represents an opportunity cost, and allows people who WANT to craft their own pretty good goods to either settle for "fine" goods (assuming fine remains the relative at 400 expected quality), or allow them to sell to newer players (or, to play ranger as a way to specialize, for instance, in woodworking or leatherworking while keeping higher combat rolls, even sans the abilities).

I think a good fix for most people that want to specialize in crafting, but felt pressured to pick a guild and class instead of waiting, would be for Rias and the staff to be fairly liberal in handing out rerolls for people that want to reroll INTO the Artisan guild on a case-by-case basis. That doesn't fix the potential demoralization for people that want to stick with their current chosen Guild and Class, but I think it's egregiously unfair to allow non-specialized crafters to craft on the same level as specialized crafters, just as I think it'd be egregiously unfair for non-warriors to be able to fight on the same level as specialized warriors and fighters.

I can't explore every area I want to on Mack, because I chose to be a non-combat Ranger with a spread of skills. So I have to find someone who can guard me to experience parts of the game that I can't stealth through effectively. That's how I overall view this situation - folks just have to choose what they want their focus to be on, because it isn't fair to someone who allocates all of their resources to crafting to be on par with someone who allocates a small portion of their resources to crafting but is still able to max out combat skills. I'd be pretty annoyed, for example, if there was a 700 Climb Check that people could bypass without investing 700 in the Climb Skill like I have.
Totally agree.
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Rias »

I'd say it's a pretty good bet that people who have clearly heavily invested in crafting skills will have a one-time limited option to swap to the Artisan Guild when it's released if they decide they want to go all-in on crafting. I'll also express a "me too" on Lexx's post, as it's about where I stand as well. We can't have specialists if everyone can do a thing just as well as everyone else, and if Artisans can't craft a bit better than everyone else, there's not much point to them existing as a guild. We've got Warriors who can fight better than everyone else, Adventurers who can explore better, and Scholars with a variety of things exclusive to them (healing for Physickers, various occult spells for the others (yes, we need more for these)). Crafting expertise in general doesn't fit into any of those as an exclusive specialization, hence the plans for an Artisan Guild.

Keep in mind that item upgrades will likely be a thing too, so one could be a Warrior or Scholar or Adventurer and craft "only" fine-quality items for people, and those items could later be improved upon by an Artisan. So it wouldn't be "don't bother making me a cuirass because you can't make it an Exquisite-quality item", it would instead be "Thank you for making me this fine-quality leather cuirass, Primalist Paul! At some point I'll probably look for an Artisan to touch it up a bit further, but this is very fine work with little to improve upon."

The alternative is to just say that we leave crafting out of any designed specialization and just say anyone can do it as well as anyone else regardless of guild, but considering how many people are specifically crafting-focused and how often there are suggestions and calls for crafting specializations/guild, it seems like an Artisan Guild is the way to go so we have something for all the people who want to be all about crafting above anything else.
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Dennis
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Dennis »

As brought up in a previous post by Rias, there was the mention that crafting time for higher quality crafts could be impacted. I understand the idea of extending crafting time for artisans to create higher quality equipment, however, I have some concerns about the impact this would have on players. Increasing the crafting time from hours to multiple days could be seen as a hindrance for the creators, as it would require a significant commitment of time and effort. Additionally, this could lead to a tedious experience for players, as they would be required to spend long periods of time sitting at the forge. The idea of scarcity is something that can be achieved through other means, such as making rare materials harder to obtain. Overall, I think that other methods should be considered to increase the value and rarity of equipment without adding the burden of excessive crafting time or by artificially database limiting them.

For example, you could release materials accessible only through a Task-based system. Players could be given tasks that require them explore different areas of the game world, fight monsters, and interact with NPCs such as Severino. They might be prompted to spend their own riln in the process in order to gather the specific materials, and then be able to use them to upgrade their fine equipment into higher quality items. These tasks might take them into collaborative spaces such as dungeons, or need to collect a certain herb in a hard to access area. This would give people reason to group up, and time-gates them without impacting individual commitments.

I also have Other Thoughts on the future of Artisan abilities and amenities:

Members of the artisans guild could have access to special abilities of course like the ability to craft higher quality items, repair items more efficiently, or craft items faster than non-guild members. They might gain access to 'higher purity' or 'higher quality' molding and casting techniques.

You could give artisans advanced repair techniques, so that members of the artisans guild could repair items that are otherwise unrepairable at permanent durability loss to continue the finite cycle of these items. This would extend the usability of items like bloodglass, without making them indefinite.

Members of the guild could have the ability to salvage materials from damaged or broken items, and to recycle those materials to create new items. This could destroy items and turn them into simple components, like a falchion or pistol to allow for molding of them and introduce player-crafting into otherwise 'generated' content only.

Money-making is at the heart of the most repetitive actions. It would be a really cool collaboration activity if members of the guild could have the ability to work together to create "items" at a guild site, allowing them to pool their resources and expertise to create items that are of higher quality or that have special properties and be paid a working wage for doing so. This translates a largely singleplayer activity into a group work that puts people in the same room for roleplay. The item then could go to auction among the players so someone can take it home, consuming that same amount of riln (or more!) as a rilnsink.

Quickened skilling areas: Members of the guild could have access to specialized crafting areas that grant expedited experience and skillgain, such as a forge for weapons, a loom for textiles, or a pottery wheel for ceramics.
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Tenoji »

I'm super new here so y'know, bucket of salt with my opinions.

While I truly do not like being forced to idle in a room (I am very easily distracted and sometimes forget I'm even playing the game when I'm just waiting for time to pass), I also enjoy having large-scale crafting endeavors that can require a number of RL days to pass for completion. It adds to scarcity, and makes certain undertakings feel more expansive due to the commitment required. Would it be possible to add an offline-timer (perhaps with a slower rate) to crafts with especially long timers so people don't feel penalized for logging off an living life, or simply going to partake in RP when they have time to play. A mix of brief active timers to proceed to the next stage, combined with unattended/offline timers could achieve the large time investment without locking players out of actually playing. I imagine some kind of system would need to be put in place to prevent having multiple long-timer crafts running simultaneously (per person of course) otherwise it kind of defeats the purpose.

It would be interesting to see artisans (or a specific specialization) have the ability to disassemble items into their base components, maybe focusing on one specific component and sacrificing the others.
Smelting metal components back into molten metal/blooms with some material lost in the process.
Fine tuning crafted items, to tweak their numbers. I.E. lowering one defense stat to increase another on a piece of armor, with min/max thresholds so it can't get too crazy. Or reducing roundtime with a weapon but reducing damage as well (adjusting the weight and balance of the weapon essentially).

Considering that iron has pronounced effect on nethrim, maybe an ability to add iron plating/studs to certain weapons or armor. I imagine the iron plating would either have a separate and lower durability from the item itself, and/or reduce the durability of the item overall. I don't know enough about the realistic repercussions of trying to gild a bronze saber in iron, nor how much the game wants to stick to real smithing practices, so I'm imagining this might be the sort of thing that only works on blunt-weapons, and select armors.
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Staz »

I've only skimmed as my attention is horrible today, so apologies if this has been mentioned, but regarding increased crafting times/energy cost/some other thing for high quality/high skill work, I'd like to propose an idea that pop up in my head all the time: have many hands make light work.

In tree felling and manual log carving, for example, multiple people working on the same project significantly reduces the working time overall. Why not have this work the same way for Artisans?

So if you're working on a high skill item, why not set it up so that others can join you in the relevant workshop and assist with crafting. So if for example you're making like... a crushed velvet choker with rubies. A hypothetical recipe might require 600 Tailoring and 600 Jewelsmithing. Let's say it costs 30 energy per step and has 600 steps.

One person attempting to craft this recipe would need to set aside about 7.5-10 hours, 5 for active crafting time (600 steps at 5 seconds per step) and 2.5-5 for resting time, depending on how often they sit to rest as opposed to standing.

If they have a friend with 600 levels in both skills to help, the step count and energy cost are each reduced by 1/4, so the overall time is halved. Now it takes 22.5 energy per step and 450 steps. If they sit to rest every time they get tired and synchronize resting, it will be about 3.4 hours, or closer to 5 realistically.

Adding another person of adequate skill reduces these new numbers by 1/4, which would allow the craft to be completed in slightly over 1.7 hours/100 min minimum. Another person helping would reduce this time 1/4 again to 50 min, and so on.

To prevent a herd of 10 artisans from speedcrafting infinite goodies, just have a minimum crafting time based on the recipe's required skill level and complexity. So the choker might default to 30 energy/600 steps and have minimums of 5 energy/100 steps. That way, it's still going to take around 10 minutes to complete no matter how many people help.

I would say personally I don't think this minimum should be higher than 20-30 min, but that's my opinion with single-user item recipes, like clothing or other gear. Something like a constructed building or shop wagon or community project, I could understand having higher minimums.

It would also be cool if artisans of lower/higher skill could feel the effects of this when they assist, with the energy cost and step reduction factor showing diminishing returns in their effectiveness the further they are from the recipe's skill minimum, while someone with 700's would give a boosted amount of assistance on all but the recipes requiring 700 skill.

So the minimum assistance an artisan could render might be like reducing the overall time by 2% (1/100 reduction of steps/energy cost) and this would be the case for someone who has less than 50 levels in only 1 skill required for the craft, so maybe a new player with 25 tailoring skill. Then the upper bound would be a 66% decrease in crafting time from someone with two 700 level skills (1/3 reduction of steps/energy).

Ideally the time reductions would be processed in priority order of descending skill level, also, since the advanced artisans are leading the lower-skill ones. This would prevent people from accidentally getting stuck with a long craft time because they're trying to teach a newbie IC and the newbie keeps joining in too quickly. So no matter when they join, someone with 700's is going to significantly reduce the overall craft time, while someone with 100's will make a small difference but not step on anyone's toes.

You'd always have to have at least one person of the minimum recipe-required skill level working in order for crafting to proceed, of course. If the last one sits to rest, anyone assisting who has lower level skill would automatically stop with a message like, "You'll need a skilled artisan to help you continue working on <partially-crafted item>." This would allow people to set up triggers for timing rests efficiently.

Finally, I think it would be neat if the top contributors toward the creation of an item had the chance to add craftmarks even if they weren't the primary crafter. These could be abbreviated forms of the normal craftmark, or items could just show "Eight Craftmarks" when you look at them, and a new command like <marklist choker> or <examine choker craftmarks> could be used to list them. I think this would be a great way to create really sentimental items for people who get into RP with other artisans.
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Navi »

I can appreciate this idea in spirit. All things considered, I still don't like the idea of any craft being assisted by multiple crafters in order to reduce times and place marks conjointly. Mostly because I can't imagine any situation in which ten crafters could stand around and hammer a sword blade out in any constructive way. Individuals can already participate in creating items in a collaborative effort by each individual supplying components. Those components can be marked as well and show up in the description. If this ever was implemented in any other additional way, I would say that it would need to be limited to very specific items.
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Re: The Artisan Guild (and other profession thoughts)

Post by Staz »

Navi wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:36 pm I can appreciate this idea in spirit. All things considered, I still don't like the idea of any craft being assisted by multiple crafters in order to reduce times and place marks conjointly. Mostly because I can't imagine any situation in which ten crafters could stand around and hammer a sword blade out in any constructive way. Individuals can already participate in creating items in a collaborative effort by each individual supplying components. Those components can be marked as well and show up in the description. If this ever was implemented in any other additional way, I would say that it would need to be limited to very specific items.
Well, I did include the idea of a logical limit specifically so you don't have 10 crafters on the same project. Mathematically it would be overkill in most cases to go above four or five at most.

A sword isn't really what I had in mind here. I used a choker as a spur of the moment example, but consider the sort of thing that you imagine being made by the most skilled of artisans. Don't you picture elaborate gowns with gems and different fabrics, cuckoo clocks with little tittering bronze birds, complex and beautifully carved wooden puzzles or toys, a crackling hearth with wrought iron grating bearing a family crest, mummer's wagons, writing desks with secret compartments and gold filigree...? None of these are specific demands for items, just the sort of thing I would think qualified to be called Superior quality.

I didn't mean to suggest this sort of crew would be working on regular items, but rather things that are above Fine in quality. IRL, these sorts of projects do typically either take months or a team of half a dozen people.
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