Non-warrior VS Warrior Feedback

[Navi]

The differences between warriors and non-warriors are extremely pronounced, with a heavy bias in favor for warriors. These differences are magnified by the fact that the current game world is centered around combat. Sure there are plenty of professions one can pick up and not be part of the combat systems, but a large portion of the profession system is centered around supporting combat. Eventually, even if you go this route, chances are you’ll end up in conflict somehow.
The feeling I’ve had for a long while now is that non-warriors exist solely to support warriors. As I understand it, that’s kind of the goal here. However, the activities that are left to non-warriors could all be done by warriors, and in fact, there’s not a lot of drawbacks for picking the warrior guild over any other guild if you do just want to support other players. The only one that comes to mind is not being able to heal, but seeing as that’s just one non-warrior specialization, that can be said for any selection. It feels unbalanced to severely limit every other selection outside the warrior guild, while not limiting a warrior’s effectiveness outside of combat for every other non-warrior activity. I know that seems silly. After all, just because someone can swing a sword well shouldn’t mean they can’t till a field, or sew clothing. However, that’s exactly what’s happening on the other side of things. Because I didn’t select warrior as my character’s guild, I’m then extremely limited in participating in this very central portion of the game. While yes, I could participate in combat and faction conflict by being one of these leather workers, blacksmiths, tailors, or any other professional really, there are few activities that someone in the warrior guild couldn’t accomplish just as well. Definitely none that take a central position in the game world.
To summarize, there is not enough to make picking a non-warrior worth forgoing being a warrior. Of course this is only one player's opinion.

[Janarc]

One thing that I think will help is the formation of the Artisan's Guild and a more robust set of crafts available to them. Making these things guild-only will force people to choose. And within the Guild, I'd love to see classes like 'Jeweler,' 'Bladesmith', 'Tailor' et cetera, limiting access to certain abilities and skill-caps.

I don't know where this is on the list of priorities, but if people feel this strongly, maybe it could be moved up the list.

[Rias]

There's certainly plenty of room for expansion of non-combat-related content. What are some things people would enjoy spending their time on and feeling specialized in that have no relation to combat? Things where a Warrior class would not be able to match up to a guild/class that did specialize in such things.

I think it should also be said that these activities shouldn't necessary be completely unavailable to Warriors. We can and do have non-warriors that regularly participate in combat. Quite a lot, in fact. They're just not as effective of efficient, per the game design. So on the flip side, it seems fair that warriors should have access to various non-combat options as well, and just shouldn't be as effective or efficient at them. With crafting being the main non-combat activity to participate in, and as of yet no possibility to specialize in crafting based on class or guild, it makes sense that it feels like warriors can both be top dog in combat as well as keep up with everyone else in crafting (because they can). Some crafting specialization concepts would go a long way to remedying this. Similar can be said for other non-combat activities like the exploration skills (including stealth), performance skills, and scholarly skills.

[Janarc]

Yeah, I would love, love, love, to see some musical skills added in to the game. I think it'd go a long way toward making bards even cooler than they are now.

I'd also love seeing specialized abilities for crafters to take their abilities into the next levels of quality, or customization. Honestly, that'd be the place I would vote for non-combat skills to expand next, but that's just me.

Also, jewelry would be neat. A use for all those gold and silver ingots!

[Delphine]

So, I play a Warrior (obviously). I play an (almost) pure combat Warrior. Aside from my locksmithing, which doesn't really help me personally with lockboxes these days as most of the lockboxes I get out of the zones which are at my combat level are above my locksmithing skill. But I'm addicted to the fun of coffer/strongbox runs so you'll be prying my locksmithing skill from my cold, dead fingers.

I digress.

My point is that there are plenty of things I'm not good at. I'm not good at:

• Any sort of crafting
• Any sort of exploring (I'm editing to note that I mean through the use of swimming and climbing skills, as referenced later in this post. I'm quite good at the sort of exploration which just requires reading lines of text in a room and noticing when a GM has put in a new exit.)
• Spotting super sneaky things, given that I can't take my perception above 400
• Cracking locks above 500 (or above... what is it? 540, accounting for lockpick quality?)
• Keeping myself from bleeding out all over the place

Given this, what I would love to see out there in the world, in terms of more non-combat content which wouldn't benefit me in any way, would be:

• Some static coffer/strongboxes that would require an adventurer of the appropriate skill to crack that aren't in a, "Dear gods we're all going to die," death trap zone (looking at you canim camp).
• Some more cool but not crazy high level mob-infested spots in-game that have some bits of lore in them, but will require exploration skills and maybe some high perception to get the full experience. Even some little climbing checks like that one down in the sea caves which ALMOST ALWAYS sees my character wiping out would be cool.
• Maybe some more adventurer/scholar specific tasks? I know scholars have their document copying... but um. I dunno. Maybe physickers can be tasked with going and working at the infirmary in New Emberlight or Stormholdt for a while for a change of pace. Or maybe adventurers will get sent out to acquire AN ARTIFACT from A PLACE and them taking the task spawns said artifact and then maybe they have to go creep around xyz zone until they find xyz item and then take it back. That would be more a treasure hunter thing, but you get my drift, surely. This would require another BBS post I think as it's a rather involved thought.

I'm picturing in my head right now some cool ruins with little swim checks, climbing checks, high level coffers, bits of lore inscribed in different languages so you'll need a mixed-race exploration group, maybe some hidden doors (or lore items?) that require an eagle-eyed adventurer to spot. I see a cool waterfall. Because waterfalls in general are cool. And maybe this is a more sprawling zone that has part of it as a scavenge spot, maybe some low level mobs (and by low level, I mean... yeah, just no murder hobo-y ones... though honestly I'd love to see some more spots in-game that didn't have mobs and were just there to be cool exploration/RP spots), LORE, etc.

[Guillaumo]

This may not be a super helpful post...

But what if 'Support' Classes could somehow contribute to combat from adjacent rooms? Defensively via traps perhaps, or offensively with magic or apparatus?

For illustration purposes, since my Fisherman is not going to want to directly engage in aggressive combat, perhaps he can pick up something from the steamworks?

[An animated photo of a fisherman loading a large fish into a tube. The image cuts to a M777 Howitzer being fired. The image then cuts to a woman being hit in the face with fish during a rainstorm, subsequently falling over]

This could leave the slobber knocking to the Warriors and the rest of us behind a defensive line.

[Gorth]

I think Delphine's restated the things I said on Discord in response to this. But there's lots of things a non-warrior can do. I don't understand this argument, at all. Why in the world do you think that non-warriors aren't important? Obviously you've epxlained it, but my gathering from OP is that you find it hard to stomach that you aren't going to warrior like a warrior, or even near the level of a Warrior. But the funny thing is this isn't true. Yes, you have to work way harder, and optimize quite a bit to perform with groups of Warriors. But? ...
...
That's the point, I feel like. I enjoy that my non-warriors have at least kept up in lower level areas. I've not personally tried the really big areas as a non-warrior, but I've seen it done, if you're good, and know what you're doing, and are paying attention. /shrug

[Maina]

To use an analogy:

If combat had one weapon type, two abilities, no ranged skill, and no zones above skill 400, that would be about the state of non-combat activities in the game right now.

I think it's fair to be frustrated. I think it is definitely a problem that exists, even if I only play non-warriors these days.

It's also really easy to look at the state of the game now and conclude that non-combat isn't ever intended to be a focus on the level of combat.

I'm sure that isn't true, and people need to remember that the game is very much in-development. Most of game design has gone into combat right now, so combat feels like the only thing worth doing. That won't always be the case, I'm fairly certain. I've seen a lot of similar lines of thought of "there aren't enough abilities to use all the slots, so we should let people use slots for other things" without considering that, some day, there will be. Game is in development. As it is now is not how it will be.

Currently, the crafting guild isn't implemented. Everyone can craft at the same level: as a hobby. It doesn't feel like a hobby since there is nothing but hobby-level at the moment. Once the crafting guilds are in, the fact that everyone else is hobby-level will be much more clear, and it will feel less like "warriors can do it as well as anyone else."

Currently, there are two tasks for scholars. One mini-game for one specific subclass. Scholars are meant to be a task-heavy guild, afaik. Implementing more tasks would help them a lot, I think. I've suggested a lot of new tasks and even a few mini-games for other subclasses in other threads.

Currently, there's... well. I don't know. Lockboxes for adventurers? But a warrior subclass gets access to that. They do seem to get a lot more unique abilities than the other guilds, but that is - again - only a temporary fix as more abilities are released in the future. I don't think adventurers have an easy fix. I think they are probably the hardest to make unique content for, actually. I did suggest a sort of randomized dungeon mechanic for them, where they can go through their own little mini-adventures disarming traps and bypassing enemies in order to get loot to sell for other guilds. Ultimately, I think Adventurers will need some kind of automated adventure-generating mechanic to make them feel worth being their own guild. And that will be a lot of work. But I think it'll be worth it. Maybe tasks to unlock boxes or steal items in certain zones would provide an adventure-lite experience for them, but not every Adventurer wants to be all about thieving either.

[Navi]

I don't understand this argument, at all. Why in the world do you think that non-warriors aren't important? Obviously you've epxlained it, but my gathering from OP is that you find it hard to stomach that you aren't going to warrior like a warrior, or even near the level of a Warrior.

I'm sorry I was unable to convey the issue well-enough for you to grasp. The issue here isn't that non-warriors can't participate in combat, it's that the game currently encourages and is centered around it, and anyone who wants to participate in it is essentially handicapping themselves for very little benefit by picking a non-warrior. There are few things a warrior can't do on their own, so if you wanted to say, be a professional fisherman, picking an adventurer makes sense. However, since melee can be used to spearfish, even this is possible for warriors to excel at. Last I checked, the record holder for the biggest fish in Shadgard belongs to a warrior. Hopefully this makes things a bit more clear. I'm currently working on a post for a separate thread to suggest more in depth mechanics for non-combat activities.

[Rias]

One thing I always find interesting about combat is how satisfying a "loop" it is, despite it really being: "go to a place, kill things, skill up, go to another place, kill more things, skill up, go to yet another place, kill even more things ..." When boiled down, combat and all its abilities are pretty narrow in scope. I think a big part of that is the variety of locations and foes, and the increasing challenges to be overcome. For contrast then with, for instance, crafting (as currently implemented): there are no rolls, no chances to fail or have a particularly exciting success, there's nothing dynamic about any of it. How can we spice that up? Hmmm.

- Skill rolls that affect the end result quality. Include chances to mess something up and make a low-quality product worse than your usual, or even so bad it can't be sold at market. Starting off you should stick to making horseshoes and nails, pegs and wedges, socks and caps. Work up to the more complex crafts when you have more skill.
- Certain materials can be harder or easier to work with. Certain woods can be easier or harder to carve. Steel can be more of a pain to forge than copper, making it something to work up to and get that sense of progression. This isn't to say one *can't* get 1 Metalworking and immediately start trying to work with steel, but chances are they're going to mess up the end product and effectively waste that steel.
- Rooms/areas with varying level of difficulty of required items? Start off doing basic tasks to keep the main town work areas supplied with basic components. When you have enough skill you can start attempting those tasks that demand Fine or higher quality. Maybe one day you'll be good enough to, I don't know ... make weapons or armor for Stormholdt, or fancy clothes for the more hotiy-toity scholars of the Library of Qamar. And if you really prove yourself maybe some more exclusive far-flung places will acknowledge your reputation enough to let you start taking on their unique tasks. I think some means of progression location-wise is important to have too, not just end result quality.

This is also making me want to revisit my idea for Haggle Battles. Imagine the combat system, except applied to haggling via the Trading skill with merchants, where you're essentially competing against another entity and using timing and certain abilities to affect rerolls and such. Could be a similar debate-like system for scholars. And even performing - dueling banjos, street dancers competing for the attention of the crowd! Then there's that dynamic and active feel that combat situations bring.