On higher level characters in low level areas, and on loot

[Prism]

Alrighty, so, I said I'd post a thread-- I'm posting a thread!

A few conversations have popped up of late regarding lower level areas, and higher-level players hunting around in those areas for the purpose of gathering riln and boxes.

Obviously, being a lower-levelled area, higher-levelled players are a leg up in striding around committing unholy feats of murder in the pursuit of financial gain.

Given that, and a few discussions popping up around that central idea, I wanted to get a thread up on the BBS so we could talk about it at length and give our thoughts in regard to how we feel about it. I know a few folks had mentioned their own personal accounts-- individuals having their kills "stolen" and looted before they can have a chance to do so themselves, groups roving about and efficiently killing before lower levelled folks could get in their own licks, that sort of thing. So I wanted to be sure everyone had the proper venue to put their opinions on this topic out there so all of us, and the staff, can see and talk about it as needed in a level-headed and chill manner.

The concerns that i've noticed seem to be:
-Higher levelled folks use lower levelled areas to grind for riln/boxes because it's easier
-The above prevents lower levelled folks from having the ability to gain access to that loot themselves, and feel out what their combat experience looks like at times
-People have had their kills "taken" and looted before they can loot them themselves at times
-People feel as though they're being ignored and not have the ability to participate in groups that are roaming about in these areas from time to time.

NOTE: The above are concerns I have NOTICED HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP. I am not saying they are my personal concerns, nor am I saying I've experienced them personally. Don't hsoot the messenger, folks!

Mind, I don't think this sort of change should happen *now*. But when development and other concerns are mediated to a point that we can take a glance at this before it causes any other issues.

My thoughts in regard to loot and the grind for it are a bit radical, and I don't expect anyone to take them too seriously. I personally like it-- but I can see why a lot of warriors wouldn't. They're as follows. (Feel free to shoot me now, that's okay)

I don't think PCs should be able to get lockboxes from looting mobs anymore.

Logic:

It's a little gamey, isn't it? The convenient video game treasure chest our humanoid enemies happened to be carrying around at the time of their demise?

The warriors that stack up the majority of these usually don't have ready access to picking them, spare nightblades. They stack them up in a vault and wait for a locksmith to crack them once their storage container is full and they've amassed a sizeable enough horde. I'm not saying this is inherently a bad thing-- just that it's the way it is.

Now, I don't think warriors should be given more access to opening these things. I think the warriors should be warriors and doing warrior-like things-- that's where their advantage lies, that's where their advantage is always going to lie.

Given that, I think lockboxes should only be capable of being found through scavenging.
The adventurers don't really have their own "thing" that makes them special. When I think of adventurers-- rogues and treasure hunters in particular-- I think of picking locks, disarming traps, finding hidden rooms and secret caches of loot. Locked boxes they can take and pick later, locked containers they can pick on the spot-- other neat little salvageables and things like that. It's what they're all about.

As things stand, warriors can get these boxes just as easily as their adventurer contemporaries can. Though they do so through brute force and killing whilst the adventurers do so through their associated specialty-- cleverness and a keen eye and nimble fingers. I believe they'd be a much more valued commodity if only the adventurers could find them.

I'm still of the belief that warriors deserve something unique to the combat grind, though. Why else be a warrior if not to do warrior things? This is where the more delicious suggestion comes in, and which, unfortunately, would require some code work. And this is a feature that is planned for later, as well-- it's just worth mentioning it as a substitute for boxes when we eventually get there.

Combat Tasks.

Warriors get paid for being warriors. They get the riln that the mobs would normally drop still-- but there'd be no more lockboxes dropping from murdered enemies. So they'd get their riln, they'd get riln for completing their task, and based on their performance in the assigned task, they'd be rewarded merit points in their associated organization to spend on that organization's resources.

This gives them something to do that's warriory, it gives them the added riln and loot they're looking for, and it gives them access to something only they have access to using their merit points. It can also help breathe life back into old areas for older players without disrupting the experience of newer players by tying task-specific mobs to the player they're assigned to. (Example: A group of bandits spawning in when Cris takes 2 steps away from the ocean and back into the coastal forest)

Task Example:

Task in Stormholdt: Standing Bounty for slain bandits

Details: "We've been receiving Reports of bandits harassing travellers near <random assigned area>. Seek them out, deal with them, and return proof of the deed."

Victory Condition 1: You kill all of the bandits.
Victory Condition 2: You kill some of the bandits, and the rest run or otherwise escape
Reward for Condition 1: 250 riln per bandit + 10 merit points per bandit slain
Reward for Condition 2: 125 riln and 5 merit points per bandit slain

Potential things you could spend your merit points on:

Sought after materials: Steel, exotic scales, crafting components branded with the organization insignia

Unique Equipment: Pretty weapons, armor, and warrior-themed clothing and equipment like canteens, containers, etc.

Combat Consumeables: One-time use consumable items which grant short-term beneficial effects. (Netherbane oil,, armor grease, bucket-drain boosters, increasing carrying strength, etc.)

I have more thoughts than this-- but don't want this thread to linger in word document hell and have you all ponit and laugh at me for a week until I posted it. So i'm posting it now.

All feedback and suggestions and discussion in regard to higher skilled folks in lower-skilled areas, as well as loot, are welcome here. Talk about how crappy my suggestions are, make your own equally crappy suggestions. It'll be great.

Thanks ya'll!

[Gorth]

So I was very, very vocally against the removal of lockboxes for loot, but I kind of sort of like what Prism has suggested, with merit points and combat tasks.

'Rare materals' gives me pause, though. That feels like something a crafter should have access to, more than anything, but I dunno. I'll think up some suggestions.

[Delphine]

Thank you for bringing this to the BBS, Prism!

Like I said on Discord when this topic was first broached: I'm not one of those warriors who engages in the practice of going to a low level zone and roflstomping everything simply for the loot. And I don't say that to come off like an elitist. Just as a Nightblade, I make a decent amount of riln from frolicking about, wrestling with coffers, so I have no need to engage in such things. Given this, it wouldn't affect me at all if lockboxes no longer dropped from mobs. I don't think this would necessarily solve the problem, though, given that some low level mobs drop a decent amount of riln when they're squashed, so Warriors needing to fund their latest festival spending spree could simply continue in the roflstomping, but now netting less riln per mob without the lockboxes dropping.

If this hypothetical change ever did go into place, though, I would agree that it does need to be replaced with a new way for Warriors to make riln. Take Black for example (sorry Kaiju, but I have to use you as an example.) Kaiju and I decided a while back that we were committed to the idea of playing pure Warriors. No dipping into crafting skills so we could do our own repairs. No taking up weaving so we could rake in the riln through knitting. Just murder and mayhem (and locks, for me, so I suppose since that technically counts as a trade skill, I'm not playing a PURE Warrior, but close enough.) We both dropped our skinning and I dumped my cooking skill and that was that. Which means that, now, the only way Black can make his riln is through looting mobs.

So I would be concerned for other Warriors who were taking a similar purist approach who weren't Nightblades. It would make it difficult for them to scrape by, I think, on long-distance deliveries and rifling through the pockets of corpses for spare change alone.

I do like the idea of those combat tasks. But I'm with Gorth. I don't think Warriors need access to rare crafting materials. Leave that for the Artisans (FUTURE ARTISAN GUILD HYPE.)

[Guillaumo]

I am just going to post my thoughts as succinctly as possible:

1- I think loot is vital part of the genre.
1.1 - *should* a skeleton drop Riln, or lockboxes? I don't know. Should Walter Sobchak of left his apartment with a bag full of dirty underwear? I don't know. But it be that way sometimes.

2- The game can determine your Risk vs. Reward of a battle.
e.g. I just raised by Melee from 75 to 100. And the Experience of a Skeleton went from 20% Buffer to 6% buffer.

3- I think that if any ENGAGED person on a target is ineligible to receive EXPERIENCE from a target, the target's loot and experience potential for all engaged persons should be reduced to 0%.

I think a lower level person should be brought to a higher level encounter and protected instead of having a higher level player steamroll a lower level environment.

[Gorth]

3- I think that if any ENGAGED person on a target is ineligible to receive EXPERIENCE from a target, the target's loot and experience potential for all engaged persons should be reduced to 0%.

While in concept this is correct, there is a massive difference in what a 400 melee Physicker can do and a 400 melee Nightblade. There's also a pretty big difference in what a 400 melee Nightblade can do (just about anything) and what a 400 melee Guardian can do.

[Guillaumo]

3- I think that if any ENGAGED person on a target is ineligible to receive EXPERIENCE from a target, the target's loot and experience potential for all engaged persons should be reduced to 0%.

While in concept this is correct, there is a massive difference in what a 400 melee Physicker can do and a 400 melee Nightlbade. There's also a pretty big difference in what a 400 melee Nightblade can do (just about anything) and what a 400 melee Guardian can do.

Is the calculation of exp vs melee skill any different based on skill by class?

I was not aware that class selection effected one's ability to draw exp off an encounter. I thought it was purely based off skill

[Gorth]

Is the calculation of exp vs melee skill any different based on skill by class?

I was not aware that class selection effected one's ability to draw exp off an encounter. I thought it was purely based off skill

This is my point. It currently does not take this into account. Thus, I'm not sure raw skill should be the only factor in how difficult an area is (in game terms) for a person.

[Rias]

For loot-carrying creatures, we can (and often do) give them a bit more riln and lockbox chances if they're tougher, so that should help balance out the idea that some mobs are tougher due to their abilities and not just what their raw skill brings to the table.

I feel like taking away most lockbox acquisition from non-adventurers would remove a piece of character inter-dependency that makes COGG what it is. I like that Warriors (minus cheaty Nightblades) and combat-inclined Scholars find boxes but need to go to an Adventurer to open them. It makes the lockpicking characters feel more useful and like they're contributing to the community when they're needed by others rather than primarily cloistered away serving themselves in their own exclusive corner.

It's been brought up that it might discourage higher-skill characters from helping lower-skill ones if bringing a higher-skill along generates less loot in the low area, but in a roundabout way this is encouraging the higher-skill to bring the lower-skill into a tougher area. Meet in the middle and cancel out the effect? Give"over-hunting" a little boost to offset it and encourage highbies lifting up lowbies rather than lowbies dragging down highbies?

[Gorth]

I know it's cool and gets lots of practice fast, but I don't like bringing lobys into hie level areas. I just feel bad everytime I get a GM's attention and get them killed. Or even just getting them killed. I don't know. It feels bad to RP out how dangerous and area is, and how much work it is to stay alive, and then people walk through Northwest Valeria with 100 melee and come out with minor wounds because I was guarding them.

[Prism]

For loot-carrying creatures, we can (and often do) give them a bit more riln and lockbox chances if they're tougher, so that should help balance out the idea that some mobs are tougher due to their abilities and not just what their raw skill brings to the table.

I feel like taking away most lockbox acquisition from non-adventurers would remove a piece of character inter-dependency that makes COGG what it is. I like that Warriors (minus cheaty Nightblades) and combat-inclined Scholars find boxes but need to go to an Adventurer to open them. It makes the lockpicking characters feel more useful and like they're contributing to the community when they're needed by others rather than primarily cloistered away serving themselves in their own exclusive corner.

It's been brought up that it might discourage higher-skill characters from helping lower-skill ones if bringing a higher-skill along generates less loot in the low area, but in a roundabout way this is encouraging the higher-skill to bring the lower-skill into a tougher area. Meet in the middle and cancel out the effect? Give"over-hunting" a little boost to offset it and encourage highbies lifting up lowbies rather than lowbies dragging down highbies?

I definitely think it’s worth noting to say that my thoughts on suddenly vanishing boxes were less I thought that they were a problem, and more a desire for adventurers to just have their own neat thing. That was the springboard I used. But given your thoughts here, and given my own experiences as a locksmith… I totally agree with this. It would feel weird if it were to just disappear altogether. I’m sure it was pretty apparent but my thoughts were more of a, “what if”, kind of thing as opposed to A, this should be a thing kind of thing.
Given this, some of the proposed alternatives in addition to what you just mentioned were the following:
1) changing it up so scavenged boxes offered different rewards then the boxes obtained through the conventional kill and Loot method
2) adding tiny little, “raid rooms” in certain areas that function much like the boss rooms, but in addition to the elite group of guards they contain, add some randomized treasure that they were guarding in a safe or cabinet or something. Still gives incentive to go look for more stuff, but keeps it separate from the rest of the potentially lower skilled area so that other people can still Flexin do their thing. Think NW quarter of Valeria or the bandit captains room