On Skills

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Maina
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:32 pm
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Re: On Skills

Post by Maina »

I guess I didn't realize people do this. I mostly increase skills in 25 increments as well, though this becomes very difficult to do at higher skill levels.

I do think a lot of the problem is solved by moving most recipes to higher skill requirements. Tasks should require 25 minimum, and at 25 you should probably only have recipes required to do the tasks. The others come later. I think it could be neat to have Profession skills be only really increased by tasks until 100, and that is where you start getting recipes/bonus commands like repair. Something like an apprenticeship period. We could probably come up with a pair of tasks for each profession skill pretty easily. Cooking already has it.

Are there any skills that are a problem that aren't profession skills? Riding, I guess. I think it should take a skill roll to mount your horse. Less than 100 should fail more often than not. Less than 100 can also drain more energy per move, as you struggle to stay in the saddle.

Requiring something extra to go below 100 sounds nice, but I'd do it per-character, not per-account. I am not a new player by any means, but I do have an adjustment period on any new character where I'm feeling out what skills I want them to have.

As a side note, to the person who mentioned taking Meditation to 1 because they didn't see a use for it: meditation is extremely useful. It's used as a defensive roll vs. supernatural effects, particularly fear. I almost always buy it to 200 pretty early on.
Firesong
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:42 pm

Re: On Skills

Post by Firesong »

I think this definitely addresses how I feel about unlearning. I'm sure we've all done it. okay, most of us have, but it always seemed sort of emersion ruiny to be all like, "Hi yeah. I totally could do that yesterday, but I forgot. overnight, cause I'm a silly."
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Teri
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Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:45 am

Re: On Skills

Post by Teri »

I don't do any crafting these days personally, but minimums for repairs or doing actions sounds fair. Not a fan of penalties to unlearning when you decide hey, this skill isn't for me I'm not focusing on it anymore. It takes times to unskill something and bucket exp and time to do it as a penalty already. Minimums thresholds for tasks, and recipes sound good. The usual advice for new players to get riln and exp is cooking, so 25 skill points for chopping, 50 skills points or more for cooking task or wherever on the scale. Reduced exp for cooking at 1 skill point (reduced exp below certain thresholds for crafting stuff too maybe.)
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Lexx416
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Re: On Skills

Post by Lexx416 »

Teri wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:18 pm Not a fan of penalties to unlearning when you decide hey, this skill isn't for me I'm not focusing on it anymore. It takes times to unskill something and bucket exp and time to do it as a penalty already.

I have more to say on the overall topic when I have some time to type it all out but, I specifically suggested unlearning below 100, because the most problematic uses of unlearning are generally going to be done by people who generally aren't going to be negatively impacted by the current penalty of time (because they'll generally just script around having to be present for the time).

I think that generally decreasing skills shouldn't carry any further penalty than they already do, but completely unlearning a skill should come with additional penalties associated with it. This would discourage people from learning swimming to 100 to bypass the exploration gate to get to the Cool Thing you need to train swimming to 100 for, and then unlearning it immediately to dump into another skill. I think taking a skill all the way to 0 should be a big deal. It's pretty wild that someone goes from "I am able to perform a skill at any level" to "I am no longer physically capable of doing this thing", and making that more thematic and more RP Driven (in my eyes) is only a good thing
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Navi
Posts: 350
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:07 am

Re: On Skills

Post by Navi »

I've gone ahead and removed the single point skills I had. I'll raise them all to 100 once I get a few more levels in.
I am glad there's more being considered regarding profession skills. I just hope there can also be some nice updates in general, rather than this being purely punitive. Looking forward to how things turn out. I've only done two profession characters, and those were so long ago I hardly remember what it was really like.
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jerc
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Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:26 pm

Re: On Skills

Post by jerc »

What if we had incremental skill point caps, rather than just the 10,000 at 100 cap? E.g. 1,000 at level 10, 2,000 at 20, etc. That would effectively limit the maximum number of minimally-invested skills you could know, while still providing some wiggle room to raise them at a reasonable rate.
Staz
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:54 pm

Re: On Skills

Post by Staz »

This seems like putting the cart before the horse and criminalizing behaviors that are a natural response to the game environment. Keep in mind that this is a roleplay-enforced environment with limited documentation and no tutorial for new players.

People invest a single skill point because, in lieu of having an extended OOC conversation with an established player, it is the only way to actually learn:
  • what recipes some skills give
  • how long recipes take to complete
  • what equipment is required
  • whether the skill is lucrative
  • what skills might best compliment each other
  • whether you enjoy the skill mechanics and want to incorporate them into your regular play
  • how many points you will have to invest to reach your goal/unlock all recipes you need
  • whether a particular combat skill fits your character's fighting style
There are helpfiles, yes, but many skills simply do not have all of the information a new player would need to have in order to know if they really want to commit to certain skills. Not all players can or will use the discord or the forum, and very new players may feel embarrassed asking for OOC help/advice as well. Discussing skills IC can be helpful, but does not allow for a detailed understanding of mechanics or what having the skill means in the day-to-day. If they want to try and learn about skills without bothering anyone, then putting a point in the skill is the most natural idea in the world.

Every week my character comes across a newbie trying to get into woodcutting because they like the idea of playing a lumberjack. They are almost always unaware how much they will have to invest in time and tools to even get started. They do not realize woodcutting is not particularly lucrative. I usually find them trying to fell a massive pine right outside the gates. After a few minutes of talking, they often either go find a smaller tree or change career paths. These are people under the impression that the only way to understand the game is to play it, unaware that they are going to end up learning a lot of frustrating lessons the hard way. In my personal experience of the game, lack of direction/information is much more often a roadblock to enjoyment than the occasional person spotted making somewhat whimsical use of the skills system.

In real life, I have changed interests and hobbies hundreds of times. I played musical instruments for eight years, then didn't play them for 10. I don't remember how to play a single song anymore. I learned hundreds of origami patterns and made thousands of models - but that was also a long time ago and I only remember a couple of basic patterns now. There is nothing inherently OOC about putting 1 point in a skill to find out if you want to progress further and what you will need to do that. There is also nothing inherently OOC about, for example, my character unlearning hundreds of points in locksmithing because he realized the adventuring life is too dangerous and he would rather focus on work he can do around town.

I understand entirely how it feels to have put time and effort into maxing a crafting skill, only to have a new player refuse to use my services because they can throw a single point into metalworking and repair their own stuff. But that experience is so rare compared to the many newbies I meet who are just hungry for even the vaguest sense of what direction they need to take their character's skills in order to match their ideal character concept. Moreover, someone who maxes a profession is not hurting for money or recognition, whether or not there are 1-pointers stitching up their own scuffed cuirasses.

I hope this doesn't come off as insensitive, but it really seems as though the game mechanics push players into using the learn/unlearn system to explore early on, and responding with disdain is a bit frustrating to see. It's also frustrating to see shade/accusations being thrown about scripting afk while unlearning skills. I have unlearned quite a lot of points at various times, and I have used scripts basically daily, but I am always present and involved in gameplay when I use them.

There is an element of this that really feels like sneering at players for utilizing game mechanics in good faith, assuming that they are exploiting and willfully cheapening the experience with no regard for everyone else. The punitive tone of the response is frustrating.

You don't have to make every low-level player break their own stuff sometimes as a collective punishment for some of them 1-pointing; you could instead implement a tutorial, mentor NPC, or just give a trial period for individual skills. Add more detailed information regarding skills that are lacking in info. Give newbies the IC equivalent of a big neon sign directing them what to read and who to ask if they need help choosing skills to fit their character and playstyle.

Putting points in lots of things, rapidly learning and unlearning skills, using scripts, sure these player behaviors can all be exploitative. But they can also be seen as good-faith attempts to understand the roleplay environment and develop on a character concept. People use scripts because crafting is, at times, repetitive and tedious -- but that just goes to show how dedicated we are to crafting RP in the first place.

I learned many times that the professional goals I had set for my character were not actually possible for him to accomplish in-game. Each time I had to learn by doing, which meant having an avenue for un-doing afterwards if everything went wrong. I don't understand how I or anyone should feel ashamed for using the skill system the only way we understood how to use it at the time.
Heron
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 12:00 pm

Re: On Skills

Post by Heron »

I've been gone a whiiiile, and I'll be busy and gone again soon, but I've got some hot takes.

Many 1-point wonder skills lack depth, and that's why we see a lack of specialization. This isn't deriding the game, since it's in development and there's only so much attention to go around.

My most-used character has 1 point in cooking. I have historically gotten a lot of use out of it, but there are basically zero benefits to raising it from 1 to 100, 200, 300, ... 700. Yes, maybe our seared meat becomes fine seared meat, but even at 700 we can't make a fine emberberry pie or even a regular one. No giant cakes, no unique perks or cool stuff (hard to sensibly do with cooking beyond morale or an EXP pool bonus ala reflection therapy).

I believe Lexx (Maybe? It's been a while) and I have had some similar disagreements in the past about climbing and swimming. To me it's a point tax on exploration, which is counter to what explorers enjoy (exploring). I also don't believe either of those has enough content to be able to sustain themselves as skills in the long run. About a year ago, I spent a week or two punching birds on an alt until I pooled enough levels. Climbed the mountain, dove everywhere there was water. There were some cool rooms, but not much else. Was it a worthy use of my time? Eh. Did I feel fulfilled for spending all that time and like a fourth of a character's total point budget to see like four rooms with nothing in them? Eh. They were cool rooms though.

1-pointers are emblematic of the current state of the (unfinished) game: some skills just lack the depth to make players want to invest in them. The point budget is tight. They don't realistically hurt specialists but do provide quality of life. At least for now, it's a band-aid worth defending.

People repairing their own weapons with minimal investment seems to be another projected pain point. My question for you here is... So what?

I don't fix my own weapons because the utility isn't worth even that one point. I have a box full of maces, and when one stops looking all shiny I throw it in the shop and grab my spare. If I'm somehow out of spares I'll just use my damaged mace or buy a new one.

Specialists aren't hurt because we want sharper weapons. We want fine weapons. We want fancy-metal weapons. We want stuff that can't be bought from stores. They provide a service that isn't covered by the repair shop.

If you make the repair weapon buy-in steeper and those people who care about doing it opt out, what do we accomplish? I sometimes show up when people offer repairs and couldn't care less if they have 1 point or 400. It was an excuse for interaction from the start. If you rip that band-aid off, what do we get? More people using the repair shop, more mace boxes, less interaction. When a specialist is around they get to feel modestly useful for performing a low-investment redundant function at the expense of everyone else. In what way does that mechanically better the game?

Changing viewpoints, I'm ambivalent on whether self-repair goes away or not because metalwork is a fleshed out skill with rewarding content. It's just a convenient example of the point I'm trying to make: sometimes it's best to leave band-aids alone. Charred meat is great if there's an excellent three-layer cake or cool ethnic-group food at the end of the rainbow. Charred meat is not cool if all I really have after 700 ranks is a choice between fine seared meat or fine skewered meat. If there's no real content yet then people shouldn't be penalized for one-pointing it. Several skills are guilty of this right now.
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