Tackle/Sweep/Shield Charge retune

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Lexx416
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Re: Tackle/Sweep/Shield Charge retune

Post by Lexx416 »

Dennis wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:31 pm Gorth brings in an interesting issue with balance resource management and player actions. I think this is two problems, one of poor resource engagement and the latter of frustration by unable to act and this is something on both sides of the argument of mobile versus player.

If Shield Bash is reducing target balance by 15, and STAGGERED causes a further 5, one strike of a shield that hits will immediately disable all of a classes advanced maneuvers for more or less the entire duration of a fight. More means of generating balance or ways to mitigate this loss would be important. Between knockdowns, staggers, and balance reduction, higher balance moves become nearly impossible to reliably maintain during a fight.

You could implement endroll% calculations on balance loss, but flat staggerlock will continue to pose an issue of constricting player action economy. When two or more NPCs attack with these abilities, it can and has often chained into a stagger-lock. This might not always kill the player, but is frequent and frustrating. on the flipside, players can do this to NPCs which makes them staggeringly weak.

If that's an intended way to play, I think that it can generally be frustrating, especially if you're fighting against equally skilled opponents. In many traditional MMO settings, temporary immunities are conferred to allow for more engaging gameplay. You can add a variety of different CC to each ability pool so people can alternate between actions if needed.

For example: If shield bash balance reduction were based on endroll%, a guardian could shield bash and stagger an opponent to take away 5+variable balance. If two such guardians attempted this, the second would only benefit from his variable balance reduction on success, as he would see the target is stagger immune for a short period of time.

In summary, what I am saying is that one possible solution could be to adjust the balance reduction values of Shield Bash, STAGGERED, and knockdown based on end roll %, or to introduce additional ways for players to regain balance. I would recommend introducing them in a generalized manner, as this issue affects more than a single guild. Alternatively, you could introduce a temporary immunity to CC effects such as staggers and knockdowns after a unit has been staggered a certain number of times in a row, to prevent them from being completely unable to act during a fight.
I'm going to reiterate the idea I've posted once or twice on different threads. I think stagger should actually be broken into two effects - DAZED and STAGGERED.

If an ability that triggers stagger rolls under a certain amount of success, the DAZED effect should be applied (say for successful hits under 50% endroll), and the STAGGERED effect should be applied to successful attacks/hits over the threshold.

Dazed
I think Dazed should add 1 to 2 extra RT onto actions that generate RT, and perhaps apply a negative reroll combat rolls. I also think it should cause movement to generate 2 to 3 seconds of Travel Time, so that it's a bit harder to flee if someone has gotten a successful staggering-attack off on you.

Staggered
I would probably just cut down the maximum amount of time you can be staggered, but otherwise, I think if we get a "lesser" version of Stagger as described above, it's probably not as necessary.
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Gorth
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Re: Tackle/Sweep/Shield Charge retune

Post by Gorth »

I tend to grump about this every few months, but I'm going to ask some questions, instead.

- Are ability trees going to see most people being able to generate balance in ways that are good other than circle?
- Are ability trees going to see most people being able to lessen balance loss from other people's abilities?

Because, when shields are around at high level, solo combat is, for me at least:
- Walk into a room:
- CIRCLE.
- Wait until they attack, because if I just CHARGE I'm going to miss, or do zero damage because of plate.
- If they don't shield bash in the first few rounds, all good.
- But if they do happen to shield bash, the odds of me succeeding the roll by zero percent is basically a tossup. and if it hits me for zero percent endroll, I now have -9 balance (-19 while I'm staggered). And my CIRCLE is on cooldown. If they hit me with this, I just walk out. Because I've lost tempo, and I won't get to do any higher balance things for several rounds (never if I get bashed or feinted again), and I'm suffering negative rerolls.

I have 700 melee and a charger. I don't feel like it. This isn't to say that I don't enjoy high level combat. It's lots of fun. And I just avoid the mobs with shields. Which I'd rather not do, but oh well. I just want to know if there are abilities planned to deal with this in the future.

Or, I do have a suggestion. Having the balance loss be based on the endroll would be fine, I think. Not based on damage, though, because then heavy armor users would never give a hoot about shields. Which is okay, I think, but probably not what the goal is. It's realistic, but not very fun.

See, as much as I dislike getting hit with Shield Bash, it's a thing in the game, and the people who build around it should be able to use it. I know I did. That's why I'm struggling to think of ways to balance it that work, but don't hurt the fun of it. Overall I think balance is in a bit of a rough spot at high level combat, but I'm not sure. I'm still having fun and making a whole lot of money doing it.
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Squeak
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Re: Tackle/Sweep/Shield Charge retune

Post by Squeak »

Having recently been stun locked by shield bashing asshats, I feel this. Most abilities use Balance to utilize. When I go from full Balance (+25) to (-25) while being stun locked, I can no longer recoup that balance in any meaningful way.

Granted, in the situation that had occurred in, I was too beat up to recoup anyways. On the same note, Deft Recovery is still resetting the stagger cooldown, so you get hammered by that, too (if you use it.)

Maybe some ability where if a critter whiffles their roll badly enough it passively triggers a repostion and balance increase?
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