Maina's Endless Iarel (and occasionally others) Questions

Discussion of religion and the Immortals.
Post Reply
User avatar
Maina
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:32 pm
Location: Colorado

Maina's Endless Iarel (and occasionally others) Questions

Post by Maina »

Rias suggested on VC that I post these on the BBS so he has time to give them proper thought. So I am posting them here.

Q: Iarel's helpfile focuses mostly on the knowledge-giving side of her, as I recall. With the Faewyr focus on animal spirits, I had three questions: Is there a serpent great spirit, what is the view of the spirit if so, and how does it intersect with Iarel?

Q: What does Iarel worship look like, and does it vary much by culture?
There was some answer to this on the voice chat, but it tended more towards beliefs and philosophy; I am curious about practice, ritual, prayers, etc, if those could be delved into?

Q: Is there any myth or legend as to why Iarel favors serpents?

Q: There are various stories and lore-bits about Immortals doing things for mortals: people seeking knowledge from Malfant, Iarel granting knowledge in exchange for favors and tasks, etc. Are these myths and legends, or are these things common or well-known enough to be considered something someone could reasonably expect to happen to them? Are they myth and legend or are they well-acknowledged facts? Would a follower of Iarel reasonably expect to meet with her and be allowed to perform a task for her for knowledge? Would an 'atheist' in-setting be mocked as denying something as evident as the sun in the sky? Are there some immortals known to meddle more and some known to never interact with people?
This one was also answered in VC, though I would maybe like to look at it more from a player perspective? Is it something that could happen for player-characters? Are there ways to make it more likely?

Not Iarel-related, but Religion/Philosophy/Metaphysics related:
Q: The nether and immortal questions had me wonder. What is the Huec view of sorcery? I played one at one point that believed it was a broken or dead aspect of Toteo left scattered over the world, but is there an official place for it in their cosmology?

Q: There are some hints of the afterlife in the various help files, but could we get an overview of afterlife beliefs for each culture? Again, I play Faewyr, but I imagine others would be just as interested in the other cultures. I read mention of Undm deciding which afterlife you go to for Faewyr, but not what those afterlives are, for example. Does contracting one of the various Afflictions (resen, nethertouched, etc) affect one's expected afterlife?

Q: What marriage traditions exist? I assume it varies by culture. Is it more secular or more religious? Are specific immortals associated with the process in cases where it's religious? Or is it overseen by all of them or the ones the couple favor?
Are there rings or other symbols of marriage? Is there a traditional color?

This was touched on, but Rias suggested it hadn't been very fleshed out at the time, so putting it here again in case that changes.

Q: This was brought up in post-VC VC last week. The Blood God likes blood. Is murdering his minions: A. Helping him because you are spilling blood in a place associated with him. B. Hurting him as you are dismissing his chosen minions as not a threat, implying he is also not a threat or worthy of respect, and "respect" is listed as a necessity in the Worship file? C. Some mix of the two.
User avatar
Rias
DEV
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Wandering Temicotli

Re: Maina's Endless Iarel (and occasionally others) Questions

Post by Rias »

Q: Is there a serpent great spirit?
A: Yes

Q: What is the view of the spirit if so?
A: It's known for its cunning and ruthlessness, and is often portrayed as aloof, and quietly (perhaps dismissively) smug and prideful. It is said to guard secret knowledge (no particular relation to Malfant - it's possible for more than one being to be into guarding or hoarding secrets). It is highly respected in druidic circles and among its fellow Animal Spirits, but it is also considered extremely dangerous, and thus never approached lightly or without great need. It is rumored in some circles to suffer from great hunger which has in some tales driven it to devour those who might otherwise have been considered friends or allies.

Q: How does it intersect with Iarel?
A: Iarel was able to charm her way into Great Serpent Spirit's trust and respect back in ancient times. The Serpent Spirit eventually allowed Iarel some hints and clues that led to her discovery of much of her vast knowledge that she is known for. Important clarification: Though it's generally believed the Serpent has taught Iarel some things directly (many "secrets of the ways of serpents" in particular), Iarel's greater knowledge is attributed to her own discoveries made after receiving hints and clues from the Serpent that helped guide her to where and how she could find answers and knowledge for herself. (more info on later question answer)

Q: What does Iarel worship look like, and does it vary much by culture?
A: You'll have to give me time to come up with specifics. It varies quite a lot from culture to culture.

Q: Is there any myth or legend as to why Iarel favors serpents?
A: In ancient times, Iarel was seeking a way to ensure mankind's survival in a harsh and dangerous world where man was likely to be preyed upon into extinction. She learned of a great serpent that guarded secrets that could lead to vast power. Risking getting devoured, she was fortunate enough to approach the serpent during a time when it was not hungry. Through some combination of wit and flattery (appealing to the serpent's pride) Iarel was able to charm the serpent into considering her more than just a curious plaything. She offered it her own knowledge and perspective, which were new and interesting to the serpent who had until then never had any dealings with beings such as Iarel. She brought it gifts. There are even tales of her going on a long string of quests to bring the serpent additional knowledge and treasures - particularly occult artifacts. Eventually, after a strong trust and effective communication were established, the serpent was convinced that it would itself benefit from empowering Iarel, as she could learn and discover things the serpent could not perceive or understand on its own, and she could then teach it in turn. So it revealed to her the way to some of the most highly-guarded secrets that it guarded but could not itself understand. All of this eventually led to something of a friendship between the two powerful beings, and Iarel attained great status among serpentkind. Through all these dealings Iarel learned much about serpents and their own secrets, including how to understand and influence them, hence the association.

Q: There are various stories and lore-bits about Immortals doing things for mortals: people seeking knowledge from Malfant, Iarel granting knowledge in exchange for favors and tasks, etc. Are these myths and legends, or are these things common or well-known enough to be considered something someone could reasonably expect to happen to them? Are they myth and legend or are they well-acknowledged facts?
A: I'd probably put it more on the myths and legends side. Plenty of people claim it, but there's never really any proof that people can just point to and say "Yes, this person definitely interacted personally with the Immortal Iarel, Serpent Queen."

Q: Would a follower of Iarel reasonably expect to meet with her and be allowed to perform a task for her for knowledge?
A: It's something they could hope for, but I wouldn't recommend making it an expectation. The Immortals seem to be frustratingly difficult to get in touch with, and are apparently choosy about who they manifest to or communicate with (if these accounts can even be trusted to be factual in the first place). The Constantians say they have their high clergy and whatnot that speak directly and often to Iarel, but again - how does one verify that? Are they just BSing it and abusing the power and influence afforded them by those who believe it? Are some real while others are faking it? Is it all legit?

Q: Would an 'atheist' in-setting be mocked as denying something as evident as the sun in the sky?
A: It would be considered pretty silly to deny the existence of powerful beings ("Immortals") in general, as things like sorcery and druidry and arcana and such are quite evident, so of course there are beings out there more powerful or potent in those things that could be considered higher beings. But specifically saying "Iarel is a lie" or "Iarel as most people believe is a misconception" would certainly be a believable stance for some in-setting people to have. It wouldn't be hugely common, but not unheard of either.

Q: Are there some immortals known to meddle more and some known to never interact with people? This one was also answered in VC, though I would maybe like to look at it more from a player perspective? Is it something that could happen for player-characters? Are there ways to make it more likely?
A: There are certainly players that believe their characters have interacted with Immortals. It's up to you (and your character) to decide whether you believe what you hear, what you see, and if what might happen to you is "real" or not. Apologies, but I do intentionally keep this all very vague. My ideal presentation of Immortals (or "gods" if you prefer) is as this mysterious and mystical and interesting and nebulous thing that you can't ever claim 100% certainty or knowledge of. That's what I feel keeps them interesting and intriguing and fun to speculate on, and compare theories about, and debate belief and interpretation and doctrine over. Once something is OOCly confirmed and stamped as 100% accurate truth canon - well, that can be neat too, but to me it makes some things a lot less interesting, and now players don't have anything to have their own take on or speculate over. And from the GM side, it would be less fun to utilize.

I will say that if you're asking if a character can expect to - potentially, not guaranteed - have a supernatural/religious/mystical experience that could very easily be interpreted as an interaction with an Immortal in some way: Yes, that's possible, and has happened to a few characters. The "Worship" helpfile/wiki article has good baseline advice on how to potentially start a connection with or be noticed by an Immortal being. From an OOC player perspective, the #1 thing is consistency, and making it clear at least to the GMs that the character is striving for that connection by their actions and use of the THINK command. I'll add my usual followup of: But don't spam it. This hasn't been a problem, but I like to include it just so no one starts thinking they're expected to be sending thoughts every hour about an Immortal. Try your best to be meaningful about it and feel free to throw your own spin on it. On the other hand, don't go too far out into the weeds in an attempt to be too unique about it: common beliefs associated with Immortals are common for a reason, and are generally a good baseline to follow. Going deliberately counter to an Immortal's established lore with a "this is my character's twisted interpretation" angle can be cool and unique and is by no means not allowed, but it's also going to be far more likely the character is then not acting in a way that is of particular interest or alignment with that Immortal and so they won't be noticed or acknowledged.

And one more disclaimer: I'm *extremely* picky about the presentation and execution of experiences that could be attributed to Immortals. They're not going to happen often, they'll only ever be done by myself (with the exception of a few entities created by other GMs), and it's unfortunately not a guarantee that every character who wants to have one will get one. I'm not saying I deliberately want to deny anyone, just that these experiences are by design meant to be rare and special, and with the requirements of getting the timing right between GM and player, and the player character going about things the right way with some admittedly vague base guidelines ... it's not something that's guaranteed for everyone. This is not meant as a discouragement! I love character that are dedicated to Immortals - I feel the Immortals didn't get enough attention in The Other Game. I'm just trying to temper expectations here. Some might be lucky enough to have the right timing and play to the interests at the front of staff's minds at the moment and get an experience relatively soon, others might go on for a long time without having an experience.

Q: The nether and immortal questions had me wonder. What is the Huec view of sorcery?
A: Oooh. Let me get back to this one. But soon(tm).

Q: There are some hints of the afterlife in the various help files, but could we get an overview of afterlife beliefs for each culture?
A: Yes, I need to hammer out the details more. One of the troubles of having all these cultures and varying interpretations is that it can be a lot harder to feel good releasing information.

Q: Does contracting one of the various Afflictions (resen, nethertouched, etc) affect one's expected afterlife?
A: That's going to be depend, but generally speaking, the nether is often believed to have an effect on the soul. Many attribute the Undying condition to it, in fact: preventing the souls of the dead from moving on after death. A common consensus is that those wraiths and spectres and phantoms out there are souls bound to the mortal world by the nether, unable to move on.

Resen is generally considered more an affliction of the body than the soul, so unlikely to be considered afterlife-affecting.

Canim condition is complicated: Some say it's more an indicator of the soul's state in the first place - like you didn't become a canim and now your soul is in trouble, but rather: your soul is in trouble, and that's why you're now a canim. Many say it's a human's soul descending back into some bestial ancient form, and that could spell trouble getting into an afterlife. But I'll try and get more specific info hammered out on afterlives and include stuff like this.

Q: What marriage traditions exist? I assume it varies by culture.
A: This is frankly something I just haven't thought a whole lot about. I'll add it to the list of wiki articles to write! And slip it into the culture pages that do exist.

Q: Is it more secular or more religious?
A: I'd say it tends toward secular more than religious. Constantians see it as religious (as they do most things), and as a result the Viali have some more religious/spiritual facets to their marriage ceremonies just because they're an offshoot of the Constantians. Won't comment further until I've sat and really pondered this particular marriage lore subject, though.

Q: This was brought up in post-VC VC last week. The Blood God likes blood. Is murdering his minions: A. Helping him because you are spilling blood in a place associated with him. B. Hurting him as you are dismissing his chosen minions as not a threat, implying he is also not a threat or worthy of respect, and "respect" is listed as a necessity in the Worship file? C. Some mix of the two.
A: The safest answer would probably be C, but what does your character think? Any opinions based on how the cultists in-game react to their deaths? This is definitely one of those things that there are going to be mixed opinions about, especially considering how polarized opinions tend to be on the Blood God.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
User avatar
Maina
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:32 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Maina's Endless Iarel (and occasionally others) Questions

Post by Maina »

This is awesome. You're awesome. Thank you very much. I'll definitely give some of these solid consideration (Blood God, immortal worship, etc), and I'm excited to see what you come up for with the ones that needed more time.

My biggest problem with THINK has always been having a sort of writer's block for content I don't think will be read or reacted to, which THINK tends to be on most games. Or being worried about spamming or doing something not in-line with the lore. I'll try to use it more.
Post Reply