There's been a lot of good discussion in this thread. Here are some scattered thoughts and responses:
- It's important to remember that this not an attempt go to back to a point in CLOK history, but rather is the acknowledgment that the history happened and remains relevant. This isn't a time-warp or a rewind.
- While it's natural that this has sparked a good deal of reminiscing about said history, I think it's important for everyone to be mindful and limit the amount of "remember when" talk (on the chat channels, etc.) to avoid making people who weren't around during those times feel uncomfortable, or just frustrated at all the "old timer talk". As has been stated in this thread, it's exciting to acknowledge all that history but we should still be looking forward, not backward.
- COGG itself is around 5 years old at this point. Any project that goes on for any significant length of time is going to eventually get to a place where it's no longer new and so new arrivals to the project are going to have to accept that there's a history to it that precedes them. On the flip side, those who have been involved in that history have a responsibility to be mindful of newer arrivals and not making them feel they need to "earn their place" into some established clique (yuck). COGG has a fantastic community and it's always heartwarming to see comments elsewhere about how welcomining and friendly a community it is, so I think we're fairly low-risk with this kind of thing but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still take efforts to be considerate of it. I will absolutely want to address any issues that do come up with this, and appreciate being informed if anyone has specific situations to report.
- It's important to be mindful of any potential issues and concerns that could come along with this official acknowledging of CLOK's history. I think it's also important to try and be optimistic about it, though. If we end up focused too heavily on the potential negatives, then we're the ones making the negatives into the focus.
- I spoke about this on one of the impromptu voicechats yesterday re: elemancy, but I'll repeat it here: In CLOK, elemancy came before a lot of the worldbuilding and lore of the setting. I was in the "I'm making my own game, wow" space and added it because it was cool and because I could. The reason it bugged me so much in CLOK is because I never did have a good idea of where it fit into the world and lore. Then COGG came about with its arcana/glyphs concept, which was essentially elemancy's replacement. With this system I know the hows and the whys of how these things work in the world and lore, and element-based glyphs/channels slot in nicely right along with fortourgy, lumourgy, etc. My "this doesn't really have a place in the lore" grudge with element-based stuff has had plenty of time do die away and I'm happy to welcome it back as part of the arcana glyphs system where it can at last have a solid place in the world's lore and, uh ... metaphysics.
- My comment of "Quite little has actually happened in COGG as far as significant events go" was not meant to belittle anyone's time, experiences, and contributions to COGG (both players and GMs). I apologize for that. My meaning was that there haven't been any events that significantly altered or changed the world to the point that it wouldn't be believable to reconcile CLOK and COGG history as the same and make it impractical to continue building on those historical foundations.
- I apologize for the spoilery OOC Caer Ioan info. I got caught up in giving examples of how the histories reconcile.
- There is remaining bitterness and prejudice from the past Shadgard/Corvus conflict. The actual conflict itself died down significantly until it became more or less non-existent after a few years, but that's not the type of thing people just forget. I'm excited to put some rumors about it back in! And the conflict may well flare up again at some point, or maybe something else that's not so conflict-based will happen between the two factions - who knows? I am a sucker for the occasional grudging "unlikely cooperation" scenario. But we'll just have to see how things play out!
- The Coalition's mine will just be another copper mine, if it isn't considered dried up. I want nicer resources to remain as potential conflict/capture points out in the wilderness for events and such.
- Thaumaturges might be at the point where they can't keep holding back from more openly helping the people of the Lost Lands and so start showing themselves (or their abilities) again. Though doing so will come with its risks, with all the dangers that have been levelled against thaumaturges in recent times!
- Regarding the exact cutoff time from CLOK, I'll need to spend some time figuring that out. I'll post the information as soon as I feel I've got a good solution. I'm going to see if I can get a summary of major events that happened after I left and decide whether I need to exclude them or not (hopefully not, as that would be less confusing for people).
- I do think it's probably a good idea to at least start out only offering "reinstated character histories" to people who were already re-playing those characters in COGG prior to this announcement. There has surprisingly been very little interest (publicly expressed or known to me, at least) in people bringing back their characters from CLOK that didn't already have a version of them rolled up in COGG. I've talked to some of the few who made versions of their CLOK characters in COGG already, and some have opted to keep them separate while others are interested in being the same as their CLOK character though there are still details to work out. So it doesn't seem like there's going to be a sudden flood of returning CLOK characters. It looks to me like most are just excited to be able to acknowledge that their past characters existed and know that their stories and contributions can officially be considered canon.
Acknowledging the history of CLOK
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
<Fellborn> NO
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
I was inquiring since I managed to be one of those players that may of reused their character. Part of it was finding it unfair they just vanished like that after investment in time and relationships. Also a bit thankful that bit of RP I was "expected" to do regarding the Church of Light has been retconned away. I really don't like to kill of NPC's and disrupting the game that hard. The entire thing caused headaches overall when it happened. I completely diverted the personality of my character when I hopped over here since I wanted to avoid people having bad memories of that particular incident and wanted to portray something different. Though I've always wanted to bring back the more mild manored character I had before.
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
So, as someone who played CLOK for a fair bit this is - for the most part - really nice news. It's great to see the history that I know and love get integrated back into COGG to a degree.
That said, I do feel for the people who are a bit hesitant over this since I was in the Tse Gaiyan during a particularly drama-filled era and I'm not going to mince words about this, that drama is one of the major reasons that I was driven away from CLOK. I know the chances that the drama and toxicity resurfacing is going to be low but part of me is afraid of re-joining them in their current form as I was hoping to when they become playable again because of this. The Tse Gaiyan might be a special case with how... rocky their history was, but can anything be done to make sure we don't go back to that?
Oh, and just so I can end on a positive note, I'm really excited to see that elemancy might be coming back! Elemency is what sold me on CLOK originally, it was honestly one of the most fun and creative magic systems I had ever encountered in a MUD, so to see it come back in some form would be wonderful.
That said, I do feel for the people who are a bit hesitant over this since I was in the Tse Gaiyan during a particularly drama-filled era and I'm not going to mince words about this, that drama is one of the major reasons that I was driven away from CLOK. I know the chances that the drama and toxicity resurfacing is going to be low but part of me is afraid of re-joining them in their current form as I was hoping to when they become playable again because of this. The Tse Gaiyan might be a special case with how... rocky their history was, but can anything be done to make sure we don't go back to that?
Oh, and just so I can end on a positive note, I'm really excited to see that elemancy might be coming back! Elemency is what sold me on CLOK originally, it was honestly one of the most fun and creative magic systems I had ever encountered in a MUD, so to see it come back in some form would be wonderful.
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
Tse Gaiyan is one I'm particularly excited to bring back because I think it so badly needs a fresh start. ICly the organization is having to rebuild after some major setbacks, so it's a great opportunity for them to consider this a new beginning and not just another leadership change. From both an IC and an OOC standpoint I can say that they are not going to put up with any petty or toxic drama nonsense. They don't have time for that, they've got literally the world's largest resen outbreak to deal with. If a member makes themself a problem, they'll be dealt with decisively.
I think it'll also help that these Societies aren't required to acquire a specific skill/ability set like they were in CLOK. We won't be getting people joining Tse Gaiyan just because they're interested in being able to pick locks or be sneaky or a be a ranger or whatnot. Those skills are taught elsewhere, they don't need to join Tse Gaiyan for that. The reason to join Tse Gaiyan now is to be a part of the cause, and I think that will naturally make the members of these Societies much more cohesive and unified as peers who come together over actual shared goals and interests.
I think it'll also help that these Societies aren't required to acquire a specific skill/ability set like they were in CLOK. We won't be getting people joining Tse Gaiyan just because they're interested in being able to pick locks or be sneaky or a be a ranger or whatnot. Those skills are taught elsewhere, they don't need to join Tse Gaiyan for that. The reason to join Tse Gaiyan now is to be a part of the cause, and I think that will naturally make the members of these Societies much more cohesive and unified as peers who come together over actual shared goals and interests.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
<Fellborn> NO
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
This, along with the ongoing Khaldian event, honestly temps me hardcore to log back in. Really excited to see how this new change will bring forth the dynamic in rp and stuff. With that said, I'm not playing old version of Arty. Anyone afraid of the old drama can rest assured. It's funny how old and new Arty have almost exactly the same backstory though.
One thing I wonder about is the chronological order of events, especially something that may be mentioned often in game, like the destruction of the old Tse Gaiyan and stuff. How long ago is it? Is it enough to make an otherwise 24 year old char in Clok era turn 51? 90? 112? How long ago did Corvous leave and the settlement change name? Given the game was originally meant to be different and now these things are merged in, it may be a bit confusing to old timers wanting to push forward with their old chars, or old timers coming back.
One thing I wonder about is the chronological order of events, especially something that may be mentioned often in game, like the destruction of the old Tse Gaiyan and stuff. How long ago is it? Is it enough to make an otherwise 24 year old char in Clok era turn 51? 90? 112? How long ago did Corvous leave and the settlement change name? Given the game was originally meant to be different and now these things are merged in, it may be a bit confusing to old timers wanting to push forward with their old chars, or old timers coming back.
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
It is heartening to know that the experiences and characters from CLOK are no longer considered unmentionables. As someone who had many cherished memories from that time and has struggled to roleplay in a setting where those memories were so close yet could not be spoken of or acted upon, this will make it much easier for me to play the game and feel comfortable within it. I do hope to retain my character's history. There will be no reason bring it up save when it is asked after or might be relevant to some current situation. I look forward to seeing more new stories unfold and getting to better know the characters driving them.
My COGG website: https://candelori.neocities.org
You think to yourself, "I am tempted to henceforth refer to this as the Bicker Board."
You experience a sudden flash of insight, as though you have an increased understanding of who you are.
You think to yourself, "I am tempted to henceforth refer to this as the Bicker Board."
You experience a sudden flash of insight, as though you have an increased understanding of who you are.
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
Good work, Rias.
It has been so difficult for me to invest my time into COGG for many reasons, not least of which has been my lack of connectedness to this oddly familiar world.
I have been having creeping thoughts for literally the past several months (not actively playing the game) about how I just can't get into any of my current COGG characters, and that I might just scrap them all and play an iteration of Jaster - and when I finally listen to the little voice in my head and check in on the BBS I find this post at the top of my Unread list.
This might be the one change that helps me get my MOJO back and invested more in this game.
Now, here's your friendly reminder to close your containers.
It has been so difficult for me to invest my time into COGG for many reasons, not least of which has been my lack of connectedness to this oddly familiar world.
I have been having creeping thoughts for literally the past several months (not actively playing the game) about how I just can't get into any of my current COGG characters, and that I might just scrap them all and play an iteration of Jaster - and when I finally listen to the little voice in my head and check in on the BBS I find this post at the top of my Unread list.
This might be the one change that helps me get my MOJO back and invested more in this game.
Now, here's your friendly reminder to close your containers.
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
Hi Rias,
I hope this message finds you well. I have seen this topic pop up both here and in other OOC venues on multiple occasions and figured I could suggest a solution that might ease concerns since the merger declaration with CLOK lore.
While many of us generally understand the intention behind merging the two lores and the benefits it can bring to the game, there is confusion among players who were invested in the new COGG lore and gameplay. Many of these players have expressed their trepidation, stating that they joined COGG to experience its unique world and lore, not the lore of CLOK. I believe that while your intentions to communicate your goals were good, it has led to a sense of uncertainty and a lack of clarity regarding what is now considered canon and what aspects of the original COGG lore may have been redacted or altered.
To address this concern and provide reassurance to the community, I would like to suggest you could put together a public and rough general timeline of major events for the Lost Lands in general, each town, and each society. This will help to serve as a reference point to clearly distinguish what elements of the CLOK lore have been merged or modified and how they fit into the overall narrative. At a base level, this will also greatly increase the amount of knowledge and tools that would be accessible to roleplay with regard to these events.
In your primary post, you've talked about individual societies, but not about the public events that surrounded them. I understand that everyone's memory is not a perfect mechanism of capturing these histories. I also acknowledge that your interpretation of certain events could be different from the player perspective for people involved in those stories. While such a timeline would be very meta in nature, I believe this would greatly help in understanding the new lore and allow players to navigate the game with a clearer sense of what is considered canon.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I appreciate your dedication to the development of COGG and your commitment to creating an immersive and engaging gaming experience. I look forward to seeing how the lore unfolds and hope that given time to implement, we will all better appreciate the merged world.
I hope this message finds you well. I have seen this topic pop up both here and in other OOC venues on multiple occasions and figured I could suggest a solution that might ease concerns since the merger declaration with CLOK lore.
While many of us generally understand the intention behind merging the two lores and the benefits it can bring to the game, there is confusion among players who were invested in the new COGG lore and gameplay. Many of these players have expressed their trepidation, stating that they joined COGG to experience its unique world and lore, not the lore of CLOK. I believe that while your intentions to communicate your goals were good, it has led to a sense of uncertainty and a lack of clarity regarding what is now considered canon and what aspects of the original COGG lore may have been redacted or altered.
To address this concern and provide reassurance to the community, I would like to suggest you could put together a public and rough general timeline of major events for the Lost Lands in general, each town, and each society. This will help to serve as a reference point to clearly distinguish what elements of the CLOK lore have been merged or modified and how they fit into the overall narrative. At a base level, this will also greatly increase the amount of knowledge and tools that would be accessible to roleplay with regard to these events.
In your primary post, you've talked about individual societies, but not about the public events that surrounded them. I understand that everyone's memory is not a perfect mechanism of capturing these histories. I also acknowledge that your interpretation of certain events could be different from the player perspective for people involved in those stories. While such a timeline would be very meta in nature, I believe this would greatly help in understanding the new lore and allow players to navigate the game with a clearer sense of what is considered canon.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I appreciate your dedication to the development of COGG and your commitment to creating an immersive and engaging gaming experience. I look forward to seeing how the lore unfolds and hope that given time to implement, we will all better appreciate the merged world.
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
I am happy for the players/characters who are feeling positively about this change but as someone who has played in both instances I can say clearly that I am very much not confident or comfortable with the merging of these two very distinct games.
COGG, to me, felt like a fresh start that enabled improvement of the mistakes of the growing pains around lore and mechanics. It signified growth from a development standpoint. Mechanically, it improved vastly on things that were executed poorly, abused or never finished. Lore-wise it felt like it had refined a lot of concepts that had ended up turning people away or caused unwanted conflict.
After you officially depart CLOK it became a place that was poorly managed, incoherently developed and rife with abuse of leadership positions. Those things had a direct impact on the game and some of the towns/history that was mentioned. I do not actually believe you are ignorant to this given the conversations we've had about it and knowing that you are still close with some of the people who felt most betrayed by the direction of game. It feels like an unnecessary rehashing of things that were probably best left in the past and suggests that perhaps history is doomed to repeat itself.
COGG, to me, felt like a fresh start that enabled improvement of the mistakes of the growing pains around lore and mechanics. It signified growth from a development standpoint. Mechanically, it improved vastly on things that were executed poorly, abused or never finished. Lore-wise it felt like it had refined a lot of concepts that had ended up turning people away or caused unwanted conflict.
After you officially depart CLOK it became a place that was poorly managed, incoherently developed and rife with abuse of leadership positions. Those things had a direct impact on the game and some of the towns/history that was mentioned. I do not actually believe you are ignorant to this given the conversations we've had about it and knowing that you are still close with some of the people who felt most betrayed by the direction of game. It feels like an unnecessary rehashing of things that were probably best left in the past and suggests that perhaps history is doomed to repeat itself.
Re: Acknowledging the history of CLOK
Wow!
It seems that I was encouraged to return to Cogg at the right time.
I cannot express how much of a relief it is to know that our sweat, tears, headaches, roleplay heart and creativity, at least to some degree, have been acknowledged even if some of us choose not to go back to that by resurrecting our old characters.
I am excited to see what Rias and his team will do to organically bring about the merging of Clok and Cogg, and I trust that they will find a way to do it without making newcomers feel like outcasts as well as trust that they will make Cogg take on its own identity.
It seems that I was encouraged to return to Cogg at the right time.
I cannot express how much of a relief it is to know that our sweat, tears, headaches, roleplay heart and creativity, at least to some degree, have been acknowledged even if some of us choose not to go back to that by resurrecting our old characters.
I am excited to see what Rias and his team will do to organically bring about the merging of Clok and Cogg, and I trust that they will find a way to do it without making newcomers feel like outcasts as well as trust that they will make Cogg take on its own identity.
(Rias says, "Happiness is accepting your past as part of who you are.")