The Brawling Skill, and Brawling System

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Prism
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The Brawling Skill, and Brawling System

Post by Prism »

Good evening again everybody. It's once again that time of week where I ramble about something at some capacity of length.

This week's edition: Brawling.

We've all talked about a potential brawling system for a while now. Sometimes in terms of grappling-- sometimes in terms of a more dedicated system specifically geared toward fistfighting and similar efforts of exchange to a less.. Shall we say.. Lethal capacity than typical combat sparring.

This post takes aspects of what's been discussed overall and bundles them together into a neat little brawling "system". Feedback and suggestions, as always, appreciated. I will however say that it ties directly into another one of my soon-coming suggestions-- the pain system.

NOTE: I am not a numbers guy. Please, please, please post suggestions for energy cost, damage thresholds, balance costs, etc. below. I'm terrible at that.


The Basics


For purposes of discussion, what I have in mind here is a dedicated brawling skill that gives access to a different sort of combat than the typical combat loop. In that, brawling would change the way combat mechanics function to a certain capacity whilst brawling. The core difference is the following.

the end goal of melee or ranged skill use, more often than not, is to reliably facilitate the killing of your opponent with your chosen weapon while simultaneously defending yourself.

The end goal of brawling skill use, by comparison, is to reliably facilitate *incapacitation* of your opponent while defending yourself, absent the use of chosen weaponry. Incapacitation meaning injuring them sufficiently to otherwise leave them incapable of continuing-- or knocking them unconscious.

In that, uses of brawling skill-related maneuvers within the brawling system wouldn't do as much damage. They'd focus more upon draining energy and inflicting wounds to specific portions of the body in order to allow them to readily incapacitate their opponent more easily. The end goal of a brawl would be someone either too wounded to fight-- at the majorly wounded level, ideally-- or unconscious. Ideally, still at that majorly wounded threshold. Blood flowing, but not so much that they're on death's door unless you really start overdoing it.

In this way, brawling really is it's own combat system that's distinct and unique from the typical armed combat loop. It creates oppurtunity for tense discussions to turn into physical exchanges without stepping into lethal range-- and It gives people more options in combat overall.

Interestingly, , it also gives warriors with a more brawling-inclined asthetic to gain more abilities to readily use some of those brawling moves to a more lethal capacity. (Berserkers headbutting noses, Dreadnoughts uppercutting. Nightblades choking someone to death)


Things that work differently in Brawls:

-Rolls are primarily based off of the brawling skill, not the melee or dodge skills, respectively. Though melee and dodge skills will have an influence on the roll itself to some capacity. This is to make brawling viable for non-warriors. Brawling is different than battlefield warfare.

-There is no general "attack" command.

-No Passive defence abilities function. (No bladecatching, cloak parrying, passive tumbling or passive flipping)

-No passive energy Regeneration while brawling is in progress.

-Wound thresholds will never reach a lethal capacity. If wounds reach the "severe" state and the brawl is still in progress, it will prompt both participants. Brawling moves won't work outside of the brawl-- and to continue, participants must actively switch to the normal combat system instead

-Using the surrender command taps you out of the fight and admits defeat at any point.

-If someone is present to do so, a referee can be chosen who also has the ability to "seperate" the combatants if the brawl gets too violent.


Basic Brawling Maneuvers


Circle: As normal circle. Adds balance. Perhaps reflavored in performance to, "<name> shifts their feet, solidifying their stance"

Feint/ feint *input*: As normal feint, but with a key difference. Within the brawling system, any maneuver can be feinted. so typing feint jab feints a jab-- typing feint uppercut feints an uppercut, typing feint circle feints the user moving as if to circle their opponent before instead closing the gap. etc. etc. In this way it allows for deceptive, southpaw fighting to be viable.

Protect/Protect <location>: The best offense is a good defense. The protect command prioritizes using your hands and arms to protect more vital portions of your body from attack. Protect head, for example, raises your hands into a boxing-style guard, where you keep your fists tucked below your eyes, and over your nose and mouth to keep yourself from.. Well. Getting hit in the nose and mouth. Whereas Protect neck would do the same, but for your throat-- protecting you from chokes, throatpunches, and the like more readily. Keep in mind, however. You aren't making the damage disappear. You're just letting your hands and arms take the hits for you. They can only take so much punishment.

Jab: A quick, light punch. Not very damaging, but reliably aimed and energy-efficient. Hard to guard against-- because they're light and quick.

Cross: A moderately forceful, straight-arm punch which is a bit harder to aim than a jab. Easier to guard against than jabs as a result of their straightforward, telegraphed nature.

Hook: A heavy, curving punch meant to confuse the eye as it approaches it's target. Harder to guard against than a cross-- but it's going to hurt even if you do it successfully.

Elbow: Quick, forceful strikes with one's elbows. Comparable to a cross in terms of protecting yourself-- but they hurt, even if you do.

Snapkick: The jab of kicks-- but all kicks do more damage than punches, are harder to aim reliably, and cost more energy to perform. A snapkick is a quick, forceful snap of the leg which primarily strikes using the tips of one's toes, the top of one's foot, or the lower half of their shin.

Stepkick: The cross of kicks. One steps into their kick to add more force-- but it's more deliberately straightforward and telegraphed as a result. Strike primarily uses the base of one's foot-- the sole, heel, and occasionally pointed toes.

Heelkick: The hook of kicks. One strikes primarily with the heel-- often, but not always gaining more leverage and force with a spin as a result of the angles needed to properly strike using such a maneuver. As the name implies, one strikes primarily with the heel and back of one's foot as opposed to the front.

Knee: Hit them with your knees. Quick, hard strikes with a hard part of your body. They hurt, even if you protect yourself from them. They hurt a lot.

Advanced Brawling Maneuvers

Those listed here are meant to be similar in vein to specialized combat maneuvers. They cost balance and do extra damage/imply an extra effect. (Decreasing an opponent's balance, chance for temporary bleeding, etc.)


Overhand: A powerful, verticly descending punch with a semi-circular arc. It uses the weight of one's body to maximize delivered force-- and is meant to be used when one's opponent is actively trying to retreat or "bob" away from oncoming blows. The vertical angle is hard to read, and it allows one to throw extra force behind it with the motion of their body as it falls. A powerful blow which can break an opponent's defence-- but Opens up one's own defences for quick, easy counter attacks. Risk-reward.

Haymaker: What is often considered to be a full-strength, fully utilized hook with the strength of one's entire body and stance behind it. An, "All or nothing" punch, if you will. Expertly times the motion of the draw and release of the punch with the motions of one's shoulders, hips, feet, and core in sequence to efficiently deliver maximum punishment.

HammerFist: Another powerful, descending punch which uses the momentum of one's swing to add force to one's strike. This particular technique refers to the absolutely reckless two-handed variety, where one clenches both fists against one another and brings them in a downward arc to strike their target forcefully with the bottom of both fists at once. Also a good move to end a combination to try and break a target's guard.

Superman: Utilizing the momentum of one's body in feinting a prepared kick to punch harder. One draws their rear leg forward as if to kick, then firmly plants it backward and down onto the ground, using the momentum of that motion transfer to simultaneously throw a more solidified, accurate cross-punch.

AxeKick: A quick, vertical lift of one's leg over the opponent's head, using the height of the kick's arc to add damage via momentum upon impact. Blow is directed primarily with downward gravity-assisted force using the heel as a striking surface. Always targets the head.

Dropkick: The act of leaping upward and using the soles of one's feet to firmly kick out at the target with both feet at once. Often employed by smaller, nimbler fighters who can more readily take advantage of their agility to regain their footing. (Yes. I know this one' smore a professional wrestling thing. But it's iconic enough that I think it deserves a spot.)

TornadoKick: The act of jumping, kicking, landing, all using the same foot-- and the same flowing motion from beginning to end to throw off one's opponent. One essentially jumps, spins one's body in the air, delivers a crescent-shaped arking kick toward their opponent, then, upon landing it, they proceed to land upon the same foot, rotate their body back into a guarded stance, and step backward to gain ground. It's quick-- it's difficult-- and it's intricate. Better explained here if it's never been seen visually. https://www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Tornado-Kick

Sweet Chin Music: Taking advantage of an opponent's obviously staggered, stunned, or otherwise distracted state-- or one's reckless disregard for sanity-- to take several emphatic steps forward-- a running start, of sorts-- before fully arching one's back and hips to maximize the force delivered with a kick offered by the leading foot, using the rear foot as support to brace and balance oneself to fully deliver the totality of the momentum gained through the sole of one's foot directly into their target's skull via their chin. (Again. Professional wrestling. BUT COME OOOOOOOON)


There. For now-- there's a skeleton of a brawling system. 4 basic punches, 4 basic kicks, and 8 different specialized and advanced attacks. four punches, four kicks. Grappling suggestions incoming here as well-- because the grapple is a huge part of brawling. But see my grappling suggestion thread for a starting point of how my logic works in that respect.

Suggestions greatly appreciated. Expect an accompanything thread laying out what I conceptualize the pain system to be-- which includes a whole bunch of neat things like debuffs based on injuries, morale, and fun stuff like acid and fire.

NUMBERS PLEASE. PLEASE. PLEAAAAASE

Grappling thread: viewtopic.php?p=5042&hilit=grappling#p5042
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Dennis
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Re: The Brawling Skill, and Brawling System

Post by Dennis »

This is a lot of thought and your passion really shows. I do want to add on that while that system was far from perfect, I rather liked The Other Game's original brawling system way back in the hayday before the modern iterations.

I do think that the idea to bring all of the skills under the blanket RANGED and MELEE combat skills was to generalize some content. While there've been a lot of thoughts on the topic, I feel like putting brawling under the MELEE COMBAT skill would be better than having a new skill to need to put our limited pool of skill points into. Overall, you've designed a very fun side-activity but it doesn't seem to eke out to something that translates outside of its sub-system.

It does sound like you've put a lot of thought into a nonlethal way of fighting. I think that it's a great roleplay element and I've certainly CERTAINLY heard many people echo the wish to non-lethally fight with other characters and mobiles. I would love to see some form of nonlethal fighting as an option, with associated capture/rehabilitation/imprisonment mechanisms associated, like turning unconscious foes in when task-relevant. I can't envision it being relevant 24/7 throughout the lands considering the lore.
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Gorth
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Re: The Brawling Skill, and Brawling System

Post by Gorth »

I'm a little iffy on it being an entirely different skill, meaning that my character's 600 melee would mean nothing to it, especially odd considering that the Dreadnought fighting style employs a bit of punching. But i do get the point. I'll be coming up with some numbers for this soon, to see if I can find a happy little medium that lets it feel like it matters.
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Lexx416
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Re: The Brawling Skill, and Brawling System

Post by Lexx416 »

I don't really like the idea of brawling being a separate encounter/system, that turns off things like passive defenses and uses it's own skill. Personally, what I'd rather see is that in addition to the generic punch you get when you ATTACK, maybe 2 to 4 "basic maneuvers" for everyone (could skill gate them, so that everyone gets a basic jab at 0 melee, you get another basic maneuver at 100 melee, 200 melee, and 400 melee), then a tiered Brawling ability that opens up more complicated maneuvers - that way if someone wants to focus on trying to nonlethally end a fight, they don't have to use a special new system mid-combat to do so. I'd probably make most of the Brawler Abilities generic (with class bonuses, similar to tactical dodge), with 1 to 2 "higher level" brawling abilities that require you be in the Warrior Guild - that way a warrior that really wants to specialize will have something going for them beyond having a higher attack roll than most non-warriors.

I'd still make brawling v weapon a generally losing battle, but on the flip side you could have a benefit of these Brawling abilities be that they improve your defense rolls specifically against people who don't have them when they make unarmed attacks against you. So if Berserker McBrawler (with the Basic Brawling and Intermediate Brawling abilities) and Swordsmaster Dreadnought (none of the brawling abilities) get into a bout of fisticuffs, the berserker with the brawling abilities would get positive rerolls to their defense rolls if the Swordmaster with no abilities swings on them.

I think there's probably also room in the Affinity system when it's finished to give people that want to dedicate themselves to brawling some Fun Things, too.

Edited to add: I do think it would be nice if passive abilities like Cloak Parry could be turned off and on, as a toggled thing.
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Gorth
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Re: The Brawling Skill, and Brawling System

Post by Gorth »

I'm just going to run down my stream of consciousness thoughts as I read down this original post. I feel a little more confident in being able to spitball ideas with my now full suite of Warrior experience.


- On the Brawling Skill:
I still would prefer that brawling be part of melee. As a comprimise, however, I suggest that a majority of the brawling maneuvers use half (half) of the melee skill instead. It lets people be scrappy, if not entirely battlefield ready.

Basic rundown. 700 melee rolls D450 (100+(700*0.5)). 100 melee rolls D150 (100+(100*0.5)). I like this because while it matters, and a 0 melee person usually shouldn't be able to take down a 700 melee person, they still could do something if they use good tactics, or crushing numbers.
In a bar fight, a majority of the cases say that you'll lose if you're fighting ten guys, no matter how bad they are. That's my hope. It's finding a happy median that will be the hard part. Maybe we can have it use seventy-five percent of melee instead, and have some tiering abilities affect it. Or something like that.
Or, we could just have it be based on abilities. I'm not too keen on this, because I feel like Melee training should lend itself to the system, but hey.

- On Passive Abilities and Their Nullification:
Nope, don't like it. Tumble and flip are just the sort of thing that you might expect in a brawl, maybe. I'm thinking that this system could be made into more of a balance challenge, as well, as part of the tactics, and making tumble/flip eat balance could be cool. However, we dont' want passives that nerf you, so what if, instead, some of the defenses were quicktime events? I like me some quicktime events. More on them lower.


- On Wound Levels:
I think that maybe someone should be able to kill another person with brawling, because it's certainly doable. This sort of system is hard because if you want to use it as an RP tool, and you want, say, a referee, it has to be the sort of thing that multiple people opt into, which can slow down the flow of roleplay in general. Which, to be honest, is alright with me. As a game with significant impact of statistical systems, rather than just roleplay and cooperate, it fits. A little game-y if it's a series of prompts or something to initiate, but using emotes to work it all out makes it fine.
I diverged. My point is, I think that someone should be able to kill a person with punches (See the Punisher), however, it's an RP game, and sometimes you just have to make do with systems to facilitate roleplay. So I'm in favor of this point.


- On Moves, Balance, and my Ideas:
Balance in the main combat system is tricky because in a majority of situations, it matters, and then once you get above a certain thrshhold you just don't really care unless someone FEINTs you, and then you just CIRCLE again. I'd like that not to be the case in the main combat system, but even if not my vision, this system could be more based on that.
I'm unsure exactly how to balance, hehehe, balance in a way that makes it so that we don't have one hit lose situations. However...
Why not? Brawling could be quick and brutal, and sometimes one sided, and sometimes back and forth. I'm not a watcher of boxing or wrestling or anything like that, so I'm maybe not the best to talk about how realistic it is, but why not? If we don't regenerate energy, and damage can add up fast with these sorts of things...it'd be fun.


The post becomes vague, at this point, and I'm honestly unsure about specifics about how the system would work. I like the idea of being able to FEINT moves, so based on that:
What if you do a move and it prints some tell text and, based on the move, the enemy has some time to choose a block/counter maneuver? Maybe the reaction takes a bit of roundtime, so that you have to commit to a block.
I'm not sure how this would work, in practice, but I feel like it'd be fun.

I'm tired, so I'll post a little more about it later.
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Volinn
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Re: The Brawling Skill, and Brawling System

Post by Volinn »

Gorth wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:34 pm Why not? Brawling could be quick and brutal, and sometimes one sided, and sometimes back and forth. I'm not a watcher of boxing or wrestling or anything like that, so I'm maybe not the best to talk about how realistic it is, but why not? If we don't regenerate energy, and damage can add up fast with these sorts of things...it'd be fun.
I'm not really one to make long posts about anything, but I've got somewhere in the ballpark of 50-100 fights and competition matches across boxing, muay thai, and grappling (BJJ and high school Greco-Roman wrestling) if anyone suggesting stuff in this thread has questions related to realism and all of that then feel free to message me (Isolani) on Discord. I'm really sick right now, but don't mind answering random questions.
Navi
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Re: The Brawling Skill, and Brawling System

Post by Navi »

There's plenty of ways to kill things already, I don't know if an in depth brawling system will add much more to the game that isn't already there. Perhaps one thing I can think of that would be useful to add, is characters with the strength attribute being able to stagger other characters with unarmed punches when they land on the head or neck. Stagger in general is something that probably should be toned down quite a bit more, but the combat system isn't something I've been interested in for some months. Things might have changed since last I engaged in it.
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