Love almost everything, but not the level and skill systems

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Delphine
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Re: Love almost everything, but not the level and skill systems

Post by Delphine »

So, I just want to preface my post by saying: I agree with Skjotur.

I find the current system of filling up a bucket over and over again until you level up and get more skill points, dumping the points in your skills, and then going out and practicing said skills so you can do it all over again to be exceptionally clunky. I'm used to systems where you just raise skills by using them and there being some sort of timegating in place so you can't just grind indefinitely and have to pause to RP for a time while something ticks down.

I don't think discussing the current system and questioning if it could be improved is meta or anti-RP. It honestly ruffles my feathers a bit that anyone might even try to suggest that Skjotur is being anti-RP with this topic. I'm a huge ol' RPer. I mainly play on RPIs with very minimal grind where RP is the main focus. And I agree with the points raised in the original post.

HOWEVER.

The current system doesn't bother me to the point that I'd personally call for a change. That would be a huge rework and require a LOT of GM time. Time that could be dedicated to new areas, to seeing Mistral Lake finally go live, and to have access to all the CvC fun that will come with that. I'd rather have Mistral Lake than a tweak to the way leveling works when, in my mind, the clunkiness of it is really only a mild inconvenience.
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Rias
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Re: Love almost everything, but not the level and skill systems

Post by Rias »

As Nobody pointed out with his link to that other thread, I've looked into this kind of thing at various points. I've occasionally tinkered with the concept as ideas have struck me from time to time, and at this point there's actually already a decent amount of code in place with the ability to swap a character's progression method from level-based (current method) to practice-based (skill up purely by practice with bucket converted to Limit Meter, same total skillpoint cap, practice gains for a skill go slower the higher that skill gets). Looks like I have a good candidate for a beta tester!

While I find the current level system works well enough, I'll admit I don't especially love it either. It accomplishes what I wanted it to do for pacing character advancement, but I'll agree that it just feels kind of goofy. Obligatory reference to the "cook pine nuts from 0 to level 100, then get around to spending all the points" meta.

I think the biggest challenge with the no-levels method will be finding that grind sweet spot. I know there are a good few people who enjoy the current ability to have more freedom in what they do to get their feeling of progress advancement with experience points. Maybe it'll be a character creation option eventually where you can choose your preferred advancement method. Who knows?

Anyway, as Delphine said - for now, there's a lot of more important stuff to work on that takes priority over reworking the advancement system. But I do really hope to get to it sometime soonish(tm). I think the the level system is actually part of the reason I don't play my own PCs as much as I did in The Other Game. It just feels kind of weird and wonky. At first it felt like a comfortable return to an old familiar place, as my other primary MUD experience had a level-based system, to say nothing of the vast majority of RPGs and even other games using the same thing. But the more I play with it, despite my having tried to get the best of both worlds after the purely skill-by-practice system of The Other Game, the more I recall why I made the decision to not use levels at all when I had that first opportunity to make my own MUD. (P.S. This does not mean I want it to be exactly like The Other Game's advancement system - it had its own issues, for sure. The overall total skillpoint cap is -not- going away, in particular.)
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Gorth
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Re: Love almost everything, but not the level and skill systems

Post by Gorth »

It's very interesting to me that people have such vastly different experiences to me. Like I said, I never struggled with progression. Like sure, grinding up Leatherworking wasn't easy, but it wasn't supposed to be easy. But despite dealing with all that, I still kept a very, very strong RP rhythm.

Please note that I'm not trying to cast down on people, or to say that I'm a *better* roleplayer or something, I think it's more of us viewing the system differently.
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Skjotur
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Re: Love almost everything, but not the level and skill systems

Post by Skjotur »

Very cool to see consideration for the different skill practice idea and the other post on it. Sign me up for that beta test. I'm happy to try it and give feedback. Other volunteers who have had more experience than I have with the levels system should also be given the opportunity to avoid bias and give more perspective.

I want to apologize for putting words into Gorth and Tulpa's mouths. Or at least insinuations. I felt like I was being accused of only caring about the progress and nothing else, and that made me feel defensive. It was wrong of me to assume and I apologize for how my reaction probably made you feel accused too.

Gorth, I am not trying to change your opinion or get you to agree with me, but I want to try one more time to make sure you understand where I'm coming from. I don't think the level system is too hard or takes to long to get to the cap. Nobody is asking for progress to feel faster or easier. Just a more natural and less clunky experience.

I feel like I've said I don't like the pacing of the Count of Monte Cristo and someone is responding saying it wasn't a short book and it wasn't supposed to be. But my complaint wasn't the length or how long it took to read. I like long books. My complaint was the pacing.
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Skjotur
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Re: Love almost everything, but not the level and skill systems

Post by Skjotur »

I'm beta testing the skill practice method and god damn, does it feel good.

The level version made me feel like I was living paycheck to paycheck. Work to a level up to earn some points. Spend all those points immediately. Back to empty feeling drudgery hoping to see that next level up paycheck as soon as possible.

Now if I want to see my tracking improve, I go out tracking. I want to get better with ranged, I go hunting. I see my progress as I do the thing even though it's in really tiny amounts. It seems like a small thing but it makes such a difference to feel like what I'm doing is paying off in the moment instead of just doing whatever busy work will get me to the next level up.

Some people probably like the leveling though. Nothing against them. I think we should have both ways available like suggested.

Some skills I'm still stuck on because using them doesn't give practice, like climb and swim. But so far I give this experience two Dunwyr tattooed thumbs up. I actually want to log in and do things now. I even set my bushcraft to decrease just so I could increase it again this way instead, since that's what I put most of my previous level points into before.

It's only been a couple days so I'll see what other problems I run into and report them. But I can't overstate how much better this already feels to me.
Gorth
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Re: Love almost everything, but not the level and skill systems

Post by Gorth »

This vaguely came up in Discord. I'd first of all, like to apologize to @op for entirely misunderstanding everything said during the topic. I'm insanely surprised by my short-sightedness and inability to read in hindsight, but it is what it is.

I was curious if the tested concept is still being considered, worked on, or taking testers? I've pretty much 180'd on my oppinions expressed, because I don't like having to stop my grinding so I can wait to grind more, especially in a place where I jut don't get a lot of RP, and going out to make my own RP would mean a lot of invested time that would then be filled with me not having XP. That's specific, I know, but it's just an example.
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