Gaining Experience

[redfox]

High level fatigue is definitely at play here, but being told to "just fill your bucket somewhere else" is not a proper solution.

For high level crafters it is easy. I can sit somewhere and carve a branch for 15 hours and get xp the whole time. Woodcutting 1 or woodcutting 600.

For high level combatants, they can find themselves not getting xp in redleaf or valeria, where they are risking their lives in every fight and the threat of death is real.

If the character I made is focused on combat, he should not HAVE to go run a delivery, or cook 20 meat, or carve a figurine just to earn experience. That is not roleplay, that is purely playing the mechanics, and being forced to do things outside of the roleplay I decided on is just not fun. That being said, adding new higher-level areas for high level players takes a lot of time, so we should try to make the content we currently have viable for a longer period of time.

I think the idea of expanding the skill range for areas is good as it prevents the given argument of everyone staying in tarueka forever.

I also think having combat tasks would be a decent alternative.

[Bloodyknight]

Happy for more input, thanks everyone for weighing in! I do believe the solution of giving some experience for a small period after a person would otherwise lose experience would be simple yet effective, without bringing in additional risk that Rias/others have mentioned with the Tarueka problem.

Choosing to quest/skill/do anything other than fighting in between fighting is outlined in one of the problems I wish to avoid. I disagree that this is a problem with high level fatigue as at least for me personally because I would be quite content for a good while fighting in Valeria/Redleaf (given that these are the ONLY worthwhile "high level areas" right now). In comparison (as Redfox pointed out), a level 400 woodworker still gets XP indefinitely for carving wheel spokes/etc and a level 400 metalworker still gets XP indefinitely for repairs/metalcasting/etc. All I am suggesting is that we get some trivial experience while hunting in our current "high level areas" to compensate for the level of risk associated with them while the newer ones are being developed, without having to make sacrifices to what is currently the skill cap.

I still have goals, and I still am very interested in getting to level 100. I still plan to play afterwards, as there are plenty of rewarding opportunities in the game. In the mean time, I would love for my favourite activity on my highly skilled characters to help me with this goal. I don't need extra/new content in this case as I am happy with what's available, I just want to similarly be rewarded for doing the things I like with the other people can still enjoy this in other walks of the game.

I do really love the idea of combat tasks if this is something that can be implemented.

Thanks for all the continued suggestions!

[Talyn]

Being a murder hobo is not always fun either. IT makes sense to take a step away from fighting and not only gain XP from fighting. Personally, I'm for cutting back xp off of crafting. I get it's a game but it's goofy to me to have someone sit there and carve a branch forever and make a ton of xp even when they maxed out their craft, whereas combat is different. I 100% understand the frustration but I'm not sure I like the idea of getting xp for killing lower-skilled targets either. Tasks, sure, that is more of go do X for X, but sometimes a character needs to take a break away from what they're doing for other things. It's why warriors can take up craft and crafters can take up the sword.

[Lexx416]

Crafters can kind of earn experience endlessly, but they do have a unique obstacle that fighters don't face currently - experience gains (and skill gains) from crafting are halted when the bucket is full.

Which I appreciate, and I think is a good thing. I do think this is just a symptom of the crafting system needing to be fleshed out to be equitable with the combat engine (and that folks just don't have the content they need, because the game isn't as developed as people believe it is), and that there should be diminishing returns on crafting the same item over and over again. Once fighters have an area with skill rolls that are regularly higher than 700, they'll have a means by which to progress even with capped skills, and they'll be able to do so without ever letting their bucket empty.

[redfox]

Being a murder hobo is not always fun either. IT makes sense to take a step away from fighting and not only gain XP from fighting.

...

sometimes a character needs to take a break away from what they're doing for other things. It's why warriors can take up craft and crafters can take up the sword.

Many people play this game and they all have their own ideas on what is and is not fun. Thank you for stating what your ideas of those are. The overall point is to make things fun for the most amount of people. You should not be forced to stop doing what you like at the risk of never progressing again.

I also feel like "lower-skilled targets" is highly exaggerated every time it comes up as a counter argument. Nobody is saying a warrior with 600 melee should get experience in tarueka, even if that is only 1% of the bucket. But maybe someone should get the minimum amount of xp in areas that are suited for someone of a slightly lower skill level so that more areas are a viable option for growth?

[Firerose]

The only time it was suggested that any xp be given to higher-skilled combatants was in my suggestion for leading groups, as a reward for leading them in the first place. And even then, it wouldn't be much xp. I'm not good at the numbers, have never coded NPCs or combat, so I wouldn't even know where to start on that, so I have no suggestions. I just thought it would be a cool idea to have something so that *if* someone with super high melee and/or ranged took a group of low-skilled combatants in there, say just to act as a tank/meat shield, not even to hit the mobs, they wouldn't leave with nothing. Obviously, the lower-skilled players should get much more of that xp.

In my opinion, it's nice to have some kind of incentive for doing something. I know some may argue that the good feeling of having helped someone is all they need, and I would agree, as it's my own feeling. But some may find such a thing beneficial or helpful.

But this was the only time exp in those situations came up, except for people to say the obvious: that going into steamroll a bunch of mobs as a super high-skilled combatant in a lowbie/newbie area is really a bad idea, for many reasons.

[Bloodyknight]

I like combat, but I don't only do combat. It's about a 50/50 mix for me. I just want the times where I do partake in combat activities to be on-par with the rest of the game in it's -current state- until there's time to be fleshed out and developed more. Players shouldn't be forced into a certain playstyle of having to mix just because others prefer doing it different. There should be an appeal for all types of players whether that's combat-only, crafting-only, or mixed especially when the framework is already in place for it with a few adjustments.

I personally like the crafting XP right where it is, I think it's a GREAT thing that a crafter can gain experience very easily as this is something I haven't seen in other games. Some players might find combat to be overwhelming and one of the reasons I love Cogg so much is that people can progress by doing either task. However, I don't need to take a break in between a 2 hour crafting project to fill my bucket with combat/questing, nor should it be this way, so it shouldn't be a similar experience for combat. This summarizes the point VERY well

If the character I made is focused on combat, he should not HAVE to go run a delivery, or cook 20 meat, or carve a figurine just to earn experience. That is not roleplay, that is purely playing the mechanics, and being forced to do things outside of the roleplay I decided on is just not fun.

In response to Lexx... A combatant DOES NOT gain XP after their bucket is full, they are still subject to the bucket cap like anyone else. There is no unique obstacle here between combatants/crafters in terms of experience gain. I mean indefinitely as... As long as the crafter has something to craft, they can keep their bucket full while they are crafting, regardless of skill level. A combatant cannot do this in a rewarding way currently without taking some kind of sacrifice.

This reminds me of another possible solution. Maybe some Redleaf/Valeria creatures could have a slightly increased difficulty? Perhaps Fjelbiests plates could be given some kind of market value? That might help a little with the whole dilemma! Simple solutions are often the best.

[Rias]

I do find myself considering the idea of a group leader potentially getting a small range-broadening, and perhaps a tiny amount even in significantly under-hunting scenarios just as a sort of "thanks for leading the group" kind of thing and to help people feel a little less hesitant to "waste time" leading their less-skilled buddies.

That said, I do highly recommend Talyn's advice: Rather than being a high-skill person leading a bunch of lower-skill group members in a low-skill area they could already handle on their own without you, be a high-skill person leading a bunch of lower-skill group members in a high-skill area. The low-skill folks will get a ton of experience, as well as an exciting time fighting in an area that's normally beyond them. I think it's a lot more fun to have a friend take you to a bigger scarier area and help set up things you wouldn't normally be able to take on, rather than just joining you where you already go normally and just making an already-manageable situation into a painfully easy and effortless one. This is something that's already viable and requires no updates!

I'm still not especially sold on a general broadening of the skill range difference for experience-granting combat. I think the solution here really is just adding some higher-skill mob zones so the fighters have experience-granting content to move on to. (And as mentioned, it's on the docket and some are in the works. New areas with higher-skilled mobs don't require any additional code or mechanics updates, all GMs can work on them.) I also really want to add in some combat tasks to provide both clear intended challenge levels as well as a bit of added purpose or direction, but that's significant codework that will have to wait until after Mistral Lake at the very least.

I do plan to eventually shake crafting up a little in order to encourage people to craft more than just pegs/buckles/socks/mugs all the way to 100. How exactly that might be accomplished is still a big question mark though. I wouldn't want to be too heavy-handed about it.

Plenty of ideas worth pondering over, so please continue discussing!

[Lexx416]

In response to Lexx... A combatant DOES NOT gain XP after their bucket is full, they are still subject to the bucket cap like anyone else. There is no unique obstacle here between combatants/crafters in terms of experience gain. I mean indefinitely as... As long as the crafter has something to craft, they can keep their bucket full while they are crafting, regardless of skill level. A combatant cannot do this in a rewarding way currently without taking some kind of sacrifice.

That's fair, and a mistake on my part - it's only an obstacle in terms of skill-gain specifically that crafters face that fighters do not. But I still believe that a crafters ability to indefinitely generate experience is a symptom of a system that just isn't as finely tuned as combat as - crafters (with the exception of some Adventurers I believe) are also hard capped at 400 skill, and will likely remain that way until an Artisan's Guild is released. So they do still have a hard-cap on their progression, just not their leveling or experience generation.

I don't really like the solution of "make progression for combatants easier without the relevant areas", because it doesn't really help burn out. If someone can still tediously grind their way to 700 combat (which they CAN do currently, and a couple have), that doesn't make it easier for them to enjoy content. I think if there was a small amount of experience generated per kill while leading a group (that checks to make sure everyone in the group is getting a hit in before awarding the Strong Warrior with exp), that's a pretty reasonable middle ground. But a bandaid solution of "let warriors grind out experience even if they're close to cap" sort of goes against what the optics of the game design is - combat is already done in a way to encourage folks to move from area to area, and to forcibly slow down/gatekeep progression. I imagine that's a very intentional design choice, and allowing meaningful progress outside of that seems counter productive.

[Firerose]

I should clarify something:
My example of going into Tarueka as a guard was in a really, really newbie situation, not one you'd do most of the time, and some may never do that at all. I like the groups going into more dangerous areas. It makes sense and does give good xp for those who may not typically play heavy combatants, or even if someone does, and they just want the challenge and fun of a group.

I tend to like crafting where it is, and the thought ot trying to decide which skill levels get xp and which ones do not for every single crafting recipe makes me cringe--hard.
I appreciate that you don't want to be heavy-handed, Rias.
I think the situation where people could gain xp at something in the 600-700 range, wherever the xp stops coming in, would be temporary until new areas are put in, then it'd go back to being what it is now, not a challenge at all.