Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

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Talyn
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Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Talyn »

So a a few people have been complaining about the javelins vs a crossbow. Javelin being a hurlable spear or a technological weapon that was designed to fire bolts at a high speed. The draw length was how far the string needs to be pulled back. The draw weight of a crossbow was very high. If a crossbowman wanted to pull the string back just ten centimeters, it would take a force of around 180 kilograms.

With this all said hurl seems to have some sort of bonus damage to it the max damage I've seen with javelins tends to range 120 at least for steel. I think riversteel makes it range up to 125 maybe. It was very hard to see a roll over 87%. However, a Fine crossbow firing fine Iron bolts has a DF of 94, which is three less then a rapier. Unfortunately I was unable to use a flatbow for further ranged testing but right now it seems crossbow or javelins are the ones that are everyone's favorite. The biggest issue with a crossbow is that the bowstring, in use roughly fired 10-15 (Maybe) times this is with at Fine sinew bowstring it's scuffed. Javelins can be chucked for two days without becoming scuffed.

I don't want to nerf Javelins into not being used anymore, but not everyone wants to use Javelins, the only thing stopping them is the 'meta'. Why would someone want to use a crossbow when they can get 8-10 javelins which does the job easier. Personally, rule of cool is my thought but meta tends to weigh heavy on the minds of players when it comes to making their life easier. Bowstrings should still remain being a money sink or maybe bolts. Maybe make the bowstring last much longer but bolts break or get lost same with arrows, and so on, while possibly lowering the damage on javelins max damage of 80 sounds fair to me but I don't really use them so if anyone else who DOES hurl them please tell me your thoughts on it and what would be fair to change in them.
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Lexx416
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Re: Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Lexx416 »

Without going into damage numbers, it'd be nice if "weaker" bows did less durability damage to strings. That is to say, if you took the exact same string and used it in a crossbow, it would break the string faster than a longbow, which breaks the string faster than a flatbow, which breaks the string faster than a shortbow.
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Talyn
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Re: Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Talyn »

Another thought and I suppose examples for how fast bowstrings break. I know there's more melee techniques but a melee weapon can go hours before becoming scuffed, but a couple of weeks back there was a ranged character who broke four bowstrings in a single hunt. Quivering bowstrings should break faster then sinew ones due to the want of spreading them around so others can play with them but even sinew bowstrings break a little way to quickly also.
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Heron
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Re: Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Heron »

Please make an effort to gather accurate information before making broad claims and sweeping suggestions. Let's see.
hurl seems to have some sort of bonus damage to it the max damage I've seen with javelins tends to range 120 at least for steel. I think riversteel makes it range up to 125 maybe. It was very hard to see a roll over 87%
Hurl does in fact do more damage, probably to account for the dangers of losing your weapon. A keen, sharpness 0 javelin can hit up to 137. At this point, it's uncertain if metal sharpness adds to thrown damage, and your numbers look like guesswork to me. You'll have to post how you got your crossbow damage. Fine quality does not affect damage factors, so it's a little weird that you list it like you expect it to. Bowstrings do suck, but javelins can be chucked indefinitely as long as you don't hit armor. In fact, all other weapons work this way.
I don't want to nerf Javelins into not being used anymore, but not everyone wants to use Javelins, the only thing stopping them is the 'meta'. Why would someone want to use a crossbow when they can get 8-10 javelins which does the job easier. Personally, rule of cool is my thought but meta tends to weigh heavy on the minds of players when it comes to making their life easier. Bowstrings should still remain being a money sink or maybe bolts. Maybe make the bowstring last much longer but bolts break or get lost same with arrows, and so on, while possibly lowering the damage on javelins max damage of 80 sounds fair to me but I don't really use them so if anyone else who DOES hurl them please tell me your thoughts on it and what would be fair to change in them.
There is a lot to unpack here. 8-10 javelins is heavy. Bowstrings are not a moneysink because no-one continues to use bows after picking them up to try them out, with the exception of Lexx who uses them for hunting, not sustained combat. Why should they remain a 'money sink?' Are you sure bolts don't already break or get lost? Did you try shooting an armored enemy with them, or just the vagrants in Tarueka?

Damage factors of 80 are in the lowest tier of 'usable' weapons, most notable being the mace and sling, which have low damage to account for their strong damage type. Anything under 80 is in the realm of small knives and random sticks you forage off the ground. What you are suggesting would, in fact, nerf javelins into not being used anymore.

Finally, I believe crossbows have a 5 second crank time and fire quickly, in one or two seconds. You didn't really touch on this or the quivering bowstring, even though it's a key factor in how crossbows work. You could, for example, offhand a crossbow and follow up a tackle with firing, quickstrike, and then a normal strike for pretty enormous damage potential.

That about covers the objectionable content in this post, factswise.

You do make some claims about the meta though, and I don't agree with you there either. Consider this: none of the highest level active combatants use javelins. You don't use them, Khan doesn't use them, and I don't use them except for animal hunting. They're a strong choice, but don't take as prominent a place in the meta as you say. You don't have to use javelins if you don't want to, especially as a duelist. I believe Agelity is high level and does use one, but uses them for the armor chink.

Not qualified to talk about crossbows because I don't use them.
Firerose
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Re: Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Firerose »

I can't speak to bows of any sort, since I've not used them.
I can, however, speak a little on javelins, crossbows, and slings.
I'm not good at number-crunching/figuring out, so my bit here will not be precise--it's not meant to be.

Slings do well for me, personally. Unless you hit certain things that will bring a fully-repaired bullet to damaged in one hit (steam stalk things), they don't wear out too much otherwise. But I don't do combat for hours--I just can't. After a while it's too much to focus on that intensely.
I would ask that bolts, bullets, and arrows not just randomly disappear. This is actually one of the things I was just thinking about the other day, with no small relief, because they don't do this. I don't mind repairing things, or making new ones, but it's nice to see another system than on the other game where arrows would just randomly streak off into the distance (approximate paraphrase).

Javelins are fun. They hit hard, don't crack after only one or two hits, and are no harder to retrieve off the ground than other ammo. Their big diwnside is their weight, but that's okay--it balances things out, so people don't go out with fifty of the things.

I've not seen Khan fight, but I know Heron doesn't use javelins, at least as far as I've seen. I don't know what Baako uses, but based on this, I'm presuming the complaint is that you, Talyn, don't want to use javelins. It was broadened to say that there are those who don't want to use them, which is fine, because i know not everyone will--it's why there are so many different weapon types, right?
Now I wonder how many others feel this way.
I don't see the issue, to be honest, except for quivering bowstrings. I'd like to see them stay in storage for, say, a week, if not on a bow or crossbow. Once on the bow or crossbow, let them decay as they do now. That would be my only thing to ask for, if I wanted them tweaked in any way. I'm not sure how open Rias is to this, though. Giving a week in storage allows someone to buy one, use it the next day, and still gain benefit. I was given one once, did not know about this decay, strung my crossbow, stored it, went back for it, and it had no bowstring, which I didn't realize until *after* I was out in the field.
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Talyn
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Re: Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Talyn »

Hurl does in fact do more damage, probably to account for the dangers of losing your weapon. A keen, sharpness 0 javelin can hit up to 137. At this point, it's uncertain if metal sharpness adds to thrown damage, and your numbers look like guesswork to me. You'll have to post how you got your crossbow damage.
looses a bolt at an infested vagrant with her crossbow! Ranged(d300([1]x)):245 vs Dodge(d103(-1x)):24 = 221 (73%)
69 pierce damage (chest)

95*.73=69.35
Round down and it's 69. If I'm doing the math wrong then sure whatever, which okay in the post I said 94 it's 95 I was off by a number. Here's another example

looses a bolt at an infested vagrant with her crossbow! Ranged(d300):262 vs Dodge(d103(-2x)):8 = 254 (84%)
80 pierce damage (chest)

95*.84=79.8
Round up and it's 80

Now to Javelins
hurls a fir-hafted iron javelin (keen-edged) at an infested vagrant! Ranged(d300):270 vs Dodge(d103(-8x)):1 = 269 (89%)
120 pierce damage (chest)

I haven't been able to do the math correct on Javelins so I can't find the DF but it does have extra damage. Basically saying you are stronger then a mechanical crossbow. I still stand by saying Javelins should get their damage lowered and still be good. Sure in a close range fight a javelin technically would do more damage then a small bolt BUT we quit using Javelins for bows/crossbows for range which is difficult to mimic in a text based game.
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Karjus
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Re: Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Karjus »

You're looking at 0.945 and 0.952 for the crossbow bolts, and as I'm unsure sharpness factors into bolt damage or how, and due to rounding you're probably at a 0.95 DF for a crossbow bolt causing pierce damage.

For that javelin shot, once again keeping in mind my comments about sharpness, you're probably looking at a 1.35 DF.

Highly inaccurate due to sharpness factor as I've no idea if the bolts were iron and whether they were both in the same state so that 0.4 DF difference definitely isn't a true reflection.
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Rias
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Re: Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Rias »

With javelins, I think I was in the mindset that they were that thing that you lead with and then switch to something else, hence their quite high damage potential when hurled. I should probably introduce heavy pilums (pila?) or something like them to fill that role though (where you can only realistically carry one with you) and tone down javelins a tad so they can continue to be a primary hurled weapon for those who want to go for that style (which I do think is a lot of fun).

Crossbows are supposed to have that benefit of being able to cock it beforehand, or escape somewhere safe and cock it in completely safety, and then move back in and fire with that really quick roundtime for minimal defensive risk. They're a little finicky that way but they have that use case. Their damage is on par with a poleaxe, so I think they're good? I don't want crossbows to turn into frequent one-shot-killers, as we intentionally moved away from that kind of thing a while back. (Another reason javelin damage needs downtweaking.) One potential adjustment to crossbows might be to have them do puncture damage but maybe increase the cock time. That's not a certainty, just on the to-consider list. We don't want them to obsolete other ranged choices.

Thanks for bringing the bowstring durability thing to my attention - they're definitely degrading much too quickly, so I'll beef those up a bit. It's right here near the top of my current to-do list now. Aside from that, I think bows are okay? Longbows hit like a poleaxe, although with pierce which is a more resisted damage type, of course. I'd say that serves somewhat as a countering factor to their various ranged advantages (bypassing various defenses, sniping, hitting flying creatures, etc).

When it comes to quivering bowstrings, those are definitely meant to degrade very quickly, and they are indeed meant to disappear on their own even if unused within a matter of days. They're intended to be a "use it when you find it" item (or give it to a buddy who can), and not something to be stashed away for a future opportunity. They're working as intended.

I like the idea for weaker bows causing less stress on their bowstrings!

And yes, virtually all weapons will do more damage when hurled as a sort of way to compensate for you not having that weapon anymore until you have an opportunity to pick it up, and having to deal with limited ammo.
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Talyn
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Re: Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Talyn »

I know it's a consider thought but it doing puncture damage for crossbows is a great idea, only concern with that is what would a quivering bowstring do to enhance a crossbow. Then again with how fast they break maybe making it mostly for bows isn't a bad idea. I personally like the idea of Crossbows doing puncture damage but that's my opinion, if they keep the same damage they do now.
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Rias
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Re: Crossbow vs Javelin vs Bow

Post by Rias »

Quivering bowstrings also add 2 rerolls and 25% damage increase, so they should remain plenty useful for crossbows.
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