Arcanists!

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Heron
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 12:00 pm

Arcanists!

Post by Heron »

Arcanists! The text below is stolen from my chatbox, which snips lines at a significantly smaller length than the forums does. I've done some minor editing for sentence-long chats and the like, but for the big paragraphs it's a bit too much effort.

From the chat discussion:
[#GAME] [discord] <Fain Welkin> nothing for arcanists since shaol, huh? Being mom's least favorite kid is rough.
[#GAME] <Rias (DEV)> I'm still glancing at them meaningfully as I sharpen an axe, but I don't just have the heart to go through with it.

[#GAME] <Rias (DEV)> The glyph system is more complicated than the
simple channel/cast of other occult stuff. The bigger problem for
Arcanists, though, is that I have a really good feel for Druidry and
Sorcery and they have particular well-defined (to me, at least)
scopes. I don't dislike Arcana - it has a very important place in the
world and lore as a concept - but it's just not my favorite to work
with, and I still struggle to design an entire class around it. It
seems to work so much better as a supplemental system that anyone can
utilize than as a specialization.

[#GAME] [discord] <Bonehead> So, if the Glyphs will be a general
thing instead of a class specific thing, I wonder what will happen to
folks who want to work some kind of Magic but don't want to risk
their soul to....well, entities. But then again, that could just be
how magic works in the world. No risk, no reward

[#GAME] <Rias (DEV)> Would Arcanists being removed as a specialization class make that harder to accomplish than it currently is?

[#GAME] <Rias (DEV)> My question was aimed at @Bonehead . But I get
people wanting to be a specialist in Arcana. I just haven't figured
out any way to make them feel a step above anyone else taking a
serious interest in Arcana.

[#GAME] [discord] <Rokalfreelight> possibly unique circles and
shapes only they can use in occult diagrams?

[#GAME] <Heron> Are there other supplemental magic systems being
planned? Like item enchantment.

[#GAME] [matrix] <Nobody> Another alternative is just making the
benefit of Arcana skill scale well. There isn't much to recommend
primalist over ranger at this point, but having high druidry does
give them unique benefits.

[#GAME] [discord] <Bonehead> Well, it depends on how you want Magic
in the world to be utilized and viewed, I think. Arcanists currently
seem to be the only Magical system that one can invest into without
"Risk" of opening yourself to entities. I could be wrong, I haven't
really dabbled into the Arcanists Thing too much.

[#GAME] <Jescat> I wnat them to be useful in something that isn't
combat as well, like druids

[#GAME] [discord] <Bonehead> Arcanists? They have glyphs not useful
or used in conbat

[#GAME] [discord] <Bonehead> I think the issues is fleshing them
out more to have a unique flavor

[#GAME] [discord] <Rokalfreelight> I will say this, there are
glyphs that can be used prior to combat to help them in some ways.

[#GAME] [discord] <Fain Welkin> I mean... do they really need a
super unique flavor beyond being able to do more glyphs and more
complex glyphs than a non-specialist? Drawing glyphs to do your
spells is already pretty flavorful and unique. And sorcerers and
druids are very flavored. I made an arcanist because I wanted general
wizardry and not edgemancy or primalism.

[#GAME] [discord] <Fain Welkin> There was some talk about glyph
storage sixish months ago that would have been a pretty neat thing to
give arcanists.

[#GAME] [matrix] <Nobody> A unique flavor can be good I will
readily admit. Having a theme helps a thing develop in a less
haphazard way.

[#GAME] [matrix] <Nobody> Right now the arcanist glyphs are useful,
but not very unified. If all the arcanist glyphs were just useful,
mostly we'd end up with occult lumberjacks and arcane artisans. At
least, I speculate as much.

[#GAME] [discord] <Bonehead> That could be their thing. Druids seem
to be able to Enhance themselves, and living things around them.
Maybe Arcanists can be useful in enhancing things, unliving things or
objects around them

[#GAME] [discord] <Bonehead> Maybe glyphs that make armor harder,
swords sharper, etc.

[#GAME] <Rokal> that would be cool

[#GAME] [discord] <Bonehead> Make things feel like they weigh less, or more.

[#GAME] <Heron> I do like arcanists getting the enchantment angle...

[#GAME] [discord] <Fain Welkin> Glyphs are enchantments is cool.
You could also have glyphs that effect the room they're in. Warding
it from intruders or cloaking it in darkness or light.

[#GAME] [discord] <Fain Welkin> Glyphs as enchantments is cool. You
could also have glyphs that effect the room they're in. Warding it
from intruders or cloaking it in darkness or light.

[#GAME] <Eugor> They have a few glyphs that do interact with
themselves. They make their aura glow in the visible spectrum, they
can muffle their sounds, and blur their image.

[#GAME] [matrix] <Nobody> I like an enchantment angle as a
specialized tool for drawing with anomalum chalk ����

[#GAME] <Jescat> I want them to be part crafters. maybe reinforce
buildings, in do something to make farm sheds cleaner, so you could
have a team of magic users for easier daily life

[#GAME] <Jescat> maybe some sort of perminent rune drawing too

[#GAME] [discord] <Fain Welkin> I just think "wizard" is a popular
archetype and it's sad the closest thing to that here isn't seeing
much love.

[#GAME] <Eugor> Making things lighter or heavier seems like a good
start, but sharpness and the like seems a little too much. How about
a glyph that makes a temperary shelter, keeps rain, cold, storms etc
out.

[#GAME] [discord] <Rokalfreelight> leomunds tiny hut from D&D?

[#GAME] <Eugor> Yes tiny hut!

[#GAME] <Jescat> or soemthing to help smoke not reach my beehives
unless fanned
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Bonehead
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Re: Arcanists!

Post by Bonehead »

As I said above, one option is to have Arcana have an ability be able to effect non-living things to a degree. Simply buffing things that occur in the world, make campfires last longer, make things weigh less, or more, etc.

Another idea is for the Glyphs to be able to provide lesser effects that other classes might be able to do, but perhaps have those effects cost the caster more then it would an Arcanists. For example, perhaps Druids might be able to cast some kind of group effect, but doing so costs them a major sanity or morale hit, or perhaps it has a chance of potentially spawning in a dangerous primal spirit that will attack the Druid. An Arcanist, using Glyphs, would be able to provide a smaller, safer way to provide this effect, without the inherent danger that a Druid would. A similar example can be made using Sorcerers.

I suggest something like this die to the fact that as I currently see it, both Druids and Sorcerers draw their Occult abilities from things that are at least somewhat dangerous and detrimental to the user. Arcanists could perhaps be a counterpoint to those type of dangerous magics by providing a more measured approach to the occult. Perhaps not "Safer" in the sense that, yes, they are manipulating forces that the mind was not be able to comprehend, but at least their manipulation of the occult does not leave them open to corruption in the case of the nether, or predatory otherworldly primal spirits on the other.
Wut?
Heron
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Re: Arcanists!

Post by Heron »

Summary of the chat (Late because I'm so slow!): Arcanists don't have a lot going for them, despite being a very cool class conceptually. The suggested ways to remedy this can be (broadly) narrowed down to 'more glyphs' and 'more systems.' Both of these serve to better define and expand the reach of a class that, at present, can't do very much.

There are a lot of cool glyph ideas already, in the posted text and in the forums. I'm going to put down a friendly reminder that traps were mentioned in the past, and are very cool and deserve attention.

System expansion talk was mostly around the idea of enchantments, which I love. Maybe they aren't the best crafters but are the only ones who can apply enchantments, or apply the best enchantments. Alchemy was mentioned somewhere in the forums, but it looks like that might go to physickers.

It feels like arcanists have the niche of a buff/debuff class, or at least one that applies lots of status effects. They also feel extra scholarly compared to the other scholar specializations, so some kind of research angle wouldn't be remiss either.

Sanity loss could be more dangerous, and possibly weaponized by the arcanist-- all glyphs make people go a little loopy, so it stands to reason there's a glyph that only exists to make people extra loopy. Stepping on other guilds' toes a little is fine, since everyone gets arcana and steps on the arcanist's toes. Everyone can interact with arcana, which I take to mean everyone can benefit from it once more glyphs are in place. This means a number of enhancements for a wide set of pre-existing systems is not out of the question-- people could apply this themselves with their tiny 100 arcana and have a short/diminished effect, or they could bring in their arcanist friend to make their lives beautiful.

I do think we need more glyphs before arcanists will feel like they're special. They can't have special features before they have features, after all. Once they have some more stuff, and their strengths and shortcomings are defined, it should be easier to figure out how to enhance them over a regular arcana-person.
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Lexx416
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Re: Arcanists!

Post by Lexx416 »

Despite how psyched I get for Druidry things, my actual favorite system for Cogg is the occult arcana glyph system, because it seems like such a cool way to do magic.

But I think that it's hard to pin down an identity (both in terms of mechanics, as well as narratively) for the Arcanist class because it doesn't necessarily have a "niche" in the game at the moment aside from MORE GLYPHS. While I think this is fine in theory, I think it leaves a little to be desired on both sides of the fence - I'd want to be able to do a little more as an Occult based class than "know more glyphs" if I played an Arcanist, and if I were designing the class I'd find it more fun to work on if there was more to it.

I think there's a handful of ways to achieve this. The first that comes to mind (I'm not counting "glyph mixing", since that's already planned) for this is to make them just BETTER at Arcana. I like the idea of abilities that increase their efficiency at energy manipulation when it comes to Glyph work (less energy per Circle drawn, less energy spent on a 'hanging' glyph like shaol) or improves their base circles in other ways (lowered RT when drawing, a way to create a base circle that gets more uses per drawing, so you can enter it 3-5 times before the entire circle vanishes, allowing someone to set a circle up in order to do back-to-back glyphs).

I also like the idea of tying Arcanists in with enchantment and and buffs that extend beyond combat uses. Things that come to mind would be allowing for specially prepared materials that can be made into enhanced objects, or for a way to otherwise attach glyphs to an item - this could allow for containers with special properties like slowing the rate of food decay, or clothing that specifically warmer than normal, weapons or tools with increased hardness or other special properties (enhanced sharpness, bonus alchemical damage, etc.). The key would be that the enchanted objects would require maintenance to keep running - which also would allow for Arcanist specific tasks (going to a town to repair a "cold box", or fixing someone's enchanted chef's knife, etc.), though that depends largely on how common items like that would be.

I'm not sure how common Glyph work is amongst the populace. While I don't think most folks would have enchanted objects for every day use (I'd prefer it if they didn't, for sure), I think it's reasonable that places of business that are well-to-do, local officials and land owners, Folks With Titles, etc., would have something like that kicking around to justify the task, which would be supplemented by the player market.

Most of this idea is based around a mixture of Artificery (item enchantment) and Sympathetic Magic from the Kingkiller Chronicles, as I think that those systems seem like something similar to how Glyphs seem to function in the lore.
"You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods... Remnants of an older time they be, living few and secretly, wild and wary as beasts."
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nobody
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Re: Arcanists!

Post by nobody »

[#GAME] <Rias (DEV)> The glyph system is more complicated than the simple channel/cast of other occult stuff. The bigger problem for Arcanists, though, is that I have a really good feel for Druidry and Sorcery and they have particular well-defined (to me, at least) scopes. I don't dislike Arcana - it has a very important place in the world and lore as a concept - but it's just not my favorite to work with, and I still struggle to design an entire class around it. It seems to work so much better as a supplemental system that anyone can utilize than as a specialization.
And some help from one of my favorite posts (maybe give it a read sometime if you haven't):
Rias wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:36 pm ...

The reality is that the majority of Nuumic citizens have little to no occult ability, nor understanding of occult arcana.

...

The first and largest group is a sort of force of occult maintenance workers. They manage the daily busywork required to maintain what occult-based infrastructure is there in the Nuumic cities, and other day-to-day stuff like that. While some might see this as essentially amounting to boring gruntwork, these arcane service workers do enjoy a considerable amount of prestige and can afford to live quite comfortably.

The second group serve as specialists in military or law enforcement positions, using occult methods of combat, surveillance, espionage and the like.

The third and smallest group serve as, essentially, occult entertainment. Particularly useful in keeping the lower classes content.
I've gone through about four drafts of this post, and where I've ended up are these main take aways:
  • Lorewise, Arcana seems like a system that helps with a bunch of different stuff - that fits well with the idea of a supplemental system rather than a specialized one.
  • Expanding the general supplemental system also expands what Arcanists can do, and I'd be thrilled to see more glyphs for everyone.
  • Looking at druidry and sorcery, a lot of the vibe they have comes from the visible descriptions associated with using it (and for druidry, the initiation), but they also come from a place of gaining power by getting closer to a Source and reaping the consequences of the closeness with that Source.
  • If I understand the idea behind Arcana correctly, it isn't tied to an immortal that actively grants the magic associated with a glyph (Nuum learned the secrets of arcana and turned from their gods - obviously arcana still works despite the turn), but the magic is probably still coming from somewhere. Does it draw from the magical essence of a shattered god? Is there actually an immortal out there powering glyphs because it does something for them? What would a dedicated and successful scholar (or order of scholars) find out about the nature and principles underlying arcana and its use with a lifetime of work? These probably fall into secret lore that will always remain unknown to players, but use that lore and the joy of exploring it to inform the feel and scope of arcana. What does drawing closer to the source of Arcana mean, and what consequences does it have? That is the space that Arcanists should occupy.
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Lexx416
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Re: Arcanists!

Post by Lexx416 »

nobody wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 10:25 pm I've gone through about four drafts of this post, and where I've ended up are these main take aways:
  • Lorewise, Arcana seems like a system that helps with a bunch of different stuff - that fits well with the idea of a supplemental system rather than a specialized one.
  • Expanding the general supplemental system also expands what Arcanists can do, and I'd be thrilled to see more glyphs for everyone.
  • Looking at druidry and sorcery, a lot of the vibe they have comes from the visible descriptions associated with using it (and for druidry, the initiation), but they also come from a place of gaining power by getting closer to a Source and reaping the consequences of the closeness with that Source.
  • If I understand the idea behind Arcana correctly, it isn't tied to an immortal that actively grants the magic associated with a glyph (Nuum learned the secrets of arcana and turned from their gods - obviously arcana still works despite the turn), but the magic is probably still coming from somewhere. Does it draw from the magical essence of a shattered god? Is there actually an immortal out there powering glyphs because it does something for them? What would a dedicated and successful scholar (or order of scholars) find out about the nature and principles underlying arcana and its use with a lifetime of work? These probably fall into secret lore that will always remain unknown to players, but use that lore and the joy of exploring it to inform the feel and scope of arcana. What does drawing closer to the source of Arcana mean, and what consequences does it have? That is the space that Arcanists should occupy.
A lot of this is the kind of thing that goes through my head when I'm thinking on Arcana (and Occultism in general). I'm not sure if there is an underlying "source" that Rias has laid out hidden away in his Deep Lore, but having more IC sources of "this is what some people thing Glyphs are" might help to give us a better idea of what niche or role Arcanists aren't meant to fill.
"You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods... Remnants of an older time they be, living few and secretly, wild and wary as beasts."
Onasaki
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Re: Arcanists!

Post by Onasaki »

I POSTED THIS ON THE WRONG THREAD WOOPS! LOL! (Deleted and rectified, sorry about that.)

Disclaimer: The wording in here is due to the fact I just copy/pasted this from a thread I made elsewhere, by accident. So please excuse me if I covered any points already brought about, but I think the general idea stands!

So, a little birdy told me there was an issue of writer's block regarding the Arcana skill, and the way glyphs work. My only ingame experience with this is the lowest of the low levels, so I can't exactly speak from experience. However, what I can do, is speak from the experience of many many many games, MUDs, and other such things with a deep, and mystical magic system! That being said, I've also come to the conclusion that a lot of people don't actually play an Arcanist as a class choice due to the lack of depth or whatever silly thing someone wants to go and say as a reason the class itself is bad.

Let me first start with, no, the class is not bad. Limited, but if you have a bit of creative thinking, and the right sort of job for it. The glyphs could potentially be really useful in some situations. However, as it stands, I will also reiterate that I have absolutely the lowest amount of experience in this, as I literally just started playing a few days ago. Lol.

So lets get down to it.

First and foremost: Beldi

The helpfile, and code function of this seems to be activation. However, it seems to only work when you type 'go circle' as opposed to anyone simply walking through it. While I think I understand why this might be the case, I could also argue that if glyphs are supposed to work in this fashion, then Beldi should perhaps activate whenever someone crosses the glyph's path, no? If there's already a glyph like this in there somewhere, then well, just ignore me. Lol. Though I feel if this was shifted just so that it activates whenever someone crosses the path... it could potentially open up the glyphs we have, currently, to be far more useful then novelties. Granted, from what I read, the novelties are extremely useful for certain kinds of situations!

Next on my list, is really, just a list of effects glyphs could potentially use. Such as elemental effects, ala Skyrim Rune Spells, or if we want to get super crazy, maybe we could etch glyphs into certain items to allow them to be activated when one holds the item, or uses the item. Maybe later down the line, more adept folks could even enchant items with magical effects that could be permanent, or at least last a very long time.

Some of the ideas I could see:
Fire Runes
Ice Runes
Poison Runes
Teleport Runes (requires two connected circles, bound by another arcanist spell? Shrug. The range wouldn't be super long to prevent abuse, but it could be a neat one)
Silence Runes (mutes a person from speaking)
Darkness Runes (Makes a room pitch black temporarily)
Forcefield/Walls? (blocks an exit?)

If we want to get super super crazy, we could go full on transmutation glyphs. Which allow you to turn raw materials into something else, by manipulating the alchemical structure of it. Of course this would be super super limited as to not completely shaft the crafters out there. But like, turning 'raw wood' into 'wood planks' with magic, seems, IMO nothing too big. But turning lead into Riln might be a abusable. Lol.

Arcanists should also have a familiar. Not as combat ready as the Warlocks, but something similar. Gives a study bonus, or something. Shrug.

Enchanting items seems, in my best opinion, would be the biggest thing to push this particular class forward. Assuming that's a thing the MUD wants, I'm not here to demand these things and as I said several times. I don't even have that much experience with this system! This is just what I've gleaned from talking to people, and what little I have seen!
I have two forces by my side,
One's the truth and one's a lie,
Which one's which I cannot tell,
This enigma is my hell.

Baako leads you over to the grass to graze.
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