Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

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Irylia
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Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by Irylia »

It might be a good idea to add some kind of limiter or higher-risk increase when stealing from player characters vs NPCs so that the same person cannot be stolen from repeatedly within a short time frame. Maybe like... if you steal from them 3x in the same 15 minutes, even if you're not caught, eventually the game says "Maybe you shouldn't press your luck" or something similar. This might be an unpopular suggestion, but I feel it might help with balancing things out so that even if you have very low perception and happen to keep your bags open, or you have to step away for something IRL and forgot to close your bag, you're not going to be a constant immediate target even if you might become a frequent one. It would also help make sure that even if you get stolen from, you're not going to lose too much in any single theft instance that you get discouraged or feel bad. Stealing is a great mechanic, but given what can be walked away with sometimes if left unlimited, it could probably use a little more balance.
Acarin
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Re: Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by Acarin »

I would be totally ok with that if it wasn't for half of successful steals turning up nothing. There's no way to target containers right now, so if steals were limited, it would be nice to be able to choose the location so we don't keep reaching into the same empty container. I am, of course, against limiting it. Stealing accumulates risk quickly so it takes a while as it stands to take anything substantial off another.

And also, the range of items you can take is already limited... and in almost all cases, those items are replaceable.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
nworpheus
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Re: Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by nworpheus »

Of course you're against something that would stop you from hurting other people. Especially new players who can't defend themselves from your abuses.
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Irylia
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Re: Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by Irylia »

I haven't toyed around with it at all so I wasn't sure about it's current limitations. I think being able to target the specific container seems like it should be feasible given you're not just blindly pawing at someone to steal from them. Maybe the limiter could be "successes" instead of attempts.
Agelity
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Re: Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by Agelity »

A limiter on successful attempts could work, but another thought I had was to have NPC thieves occasionally skulking about in areas. Makes it harder to pinpoint individuals responsible for stealing, also makes people a bit more aware that yes, theft is indeed a thing and that yes, some precautions do need to be taken or sometimes you'll be short some riln and perhaps a few items.

Could perhaps have a limiter on total newbies so that they can get a feel for the game mechanics and a bit of the world before getting thrust right into the real aspects of the game (where it is indeed a dangerous world). Not sure how I'd suggest going about that without also limiting certain aspects from the newbie themselves. After all, someone getting themselves into trouble first thing... well, as someone that's probably suffered more deaths than most in game, you get accustomed to things one way or another. It's not a personal thing that the world's out to get you, that the infested put a spear through your eye-socket, or that antagonistic individuals might take up on some opportunity where it exists, that's just the way it goes sometimes.

There are ways to get around these things, but it may require some preparation, a bit of experience with the game proper, and perhaps a bit of patience as even that doesn't guarantee total survival.
Dennis
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Re: Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by Dennis »

The Lost Lands are harsh and a lot of people risk, due to various circumstances, having to go without food or shelter. The presence of beggars and thieves should be expected in such harsh conditions.

I think adding in low skill NPC thieves to shadgard who are stealthed and frequently stealing from players would be a good way to reduce the seemingly personal nature of being stolen from. People need to learn to secure their property. When caught, players should be able to yell for a guard to arrest them, who will return your stolen items back to you. Murdering a thief should send you to jail with a hefty fine for manslaughter, at least in towns.

I noticed there was a toll charger added recently to an area in game. While I think an overt NPC charging tolls is a great addition, I think there could be hidden rogues lying in wait who also pick the pockets of travellers along the roads as well.

As far as PC stealing goes, I think building risk and increasing the impact risk has on successful artifice rolls akin to heightened perception would be fine. Once the thief has been spotted it should return the classic Youv'e just been spotted it's not wise to do that to prevent repeating immediately. The PC thief could hide and return again later, but that's more or less how someone would repeat a mark in reality, too.

Artifice is a skill implemented with intention. A thievery system would not exist otherwise. Sometimes you get caught unawares and someone makes an easy mark of you but there's a level of awareness and security people need to take into their own hands!

A tip instructing people to close their riln containers or risk having their pockets picked would be nice.
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."
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Irylia
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Re: Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by Irylia »

NPC thieves is fine and I get that concern completely. I would love to see more NPC to PC equivalents added to the game world. But the reason I posted this wasn't about awareness of PCs stealing and protection for the thieves so much as protection for the victims. I see this as two separate issues rather than an alternative to limiters, though they definitely both apply to this scenario, Yes, people need to take precautions. Yes, people need to stop jumping to meta/ooc conclusions about who is stealing from them. Yes, people should logout if they're going to step away, or at least close their bags, especially if they're being actively stalked by someone. There's definitely a level of responsibility that falls on the victim. But I still think there needs to be some mechanical or personal limiter to the thieves as well.

The issue that came up (and this isn't the only time this has happened either here or in other games), is that a person was stolen from repeatedly for an extended period of time because the target was AFK. That's far more than "some riln and perhaps a few items" worth of thieving. Much as I would like to hope there's some "honor" system to thieving, that doesn't always seem to be the case. I feel like it borders on grief/exploitation to take advantage of someone's misfortune or circumstance, regardless of the potential IC reasons for stealing from them in the first place.

I know someone in the other game who had their house key stolen and rather than take one or two items, the thief literally stole their entire household contents - several wagons full - simply because the person was offline and the town guards didn't bother to stop them. How this person even knew which house the key belonged to was also a bit controversial, but that's just how things go sometimes with OOC/IC bleed-over. Of course that person who was stolen from didn't know about keyrings at the time and the key was stolen during an event which left their bag open while purchasing event-related items. Other times I've heard players lose thousands of riln and multiple items over the course of a few hours - sometimes of very high value. Sometimes these players are very new to the game, sometimes not. And usually in these cases I have no idea why or how they're getting stolen from as I've never been one to leave bags open, but it does happen. But I still feel like these kinds of extremes should not be happening in a game people play to enjoy their time and escape.

I guess what I'm saying is - I appreciate all these suggestions and I realize that it's the responsibility of the person being stolen from to be careful with their items and bags, but I also feel like the thieves should bear some responsibility for their actions. I also don't think it should be based solely on newness to the game. To me it just seems a bit ridiculous that any thief would steal from the same target over and over in any situation within such a short timeframe. They would take something and move on. It also seems unbelievable that someone could steal so much and the person not notice. The whole point in taking only tiny items or small amounts of riln or whatever the mechanic is - is that it's an unnoticeable amount. When you get to the point of changing someone's encumbrance level because you took so much, that seems very excessive.

So here's what I think we've come up with so far as potential options for helping with both sides of this issue:
- Limit number of successful thefts in a given timeframe
- Add NPC thieves/random thefts (which I believe is already to-doed)
- Add container targeting to pickpocket commands
- Add a way for victims to alert guards if they notice a thief
- Add tips about keeping bags closed, using banknotes, and other anti-theft mechanics to the new player tutorial
- Potentially add a theft-free timer for brand new characters so they can safely get started and worry about losses once they're established
- Potentially increase risk gains from theft attempts
- Potentially add a mechanic to discourage or disallow picking pockets from someone if they "catch" you but are AFK or otherwise do not act on it - at least for a short cooldown period
- Add road/travel thieves
Agelity
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Re: Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by Agelity »

Irylia wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:51 am So here's what I think we've come up with so far as potential options for helping with both sides of this issue:
- Limit number of successful thefts in a given timeframe
- Add NPC thieves/random thefts (which I believe is already to-doed)
- Add container targeting to pickpocket commands
- Add a way for victims to alert guards if they notice a thief
- Add tips about keeping bags closed, using banknotes, and other anti-theft mechanics to the new player tutorial
- Potentially add a theft-free timer for brand new characters so they can safely get started and worry about losses once they're established
- Potentially increase risk gains from theft attempts
- Potentially add a mechanic to discourage or disallow picking pockets from someone if they "catch" you but are AFK or otherwise do not act on it - at least for a short cooldown period
- Add road/travel thieves
Just to clarify, I do personally agree with your above (non-quoted) concerns as I'd certainly love to see a bit more restraint instead of hand-waving it as a "sucks to suck" sort of ordeal. High level players getting caught with their proverbial pants down? Well, perhaps that quote's a little more appropriate. New player getting familiar with the game and hasn't quite learned the harsh realities of the world? I'm sure we can think of things to make sure they're aware of that without forcing them into a crappy situation themselves, especially by higher level players taking advantage of misfortune. OOC things do happen, and suffering IC as a result of that really really stinks, especially when the individuals causing it aren't particularly prone to expressing much sympathy for their actions. That IC/OOC line gets a little more blurred at times than we'd like, but by the very nature of this being a game it does happy to some degree.

Again, my personal feelings on the matter, but something I think can be largely mitigated with some mechanical changes in the event self-restraint is not quite as thoroughly practiced (though I'd personally hope most could express it in some regard).

All that said, I do like the above list you've pointed out. Would help it feel less like you're being exploited because of the game's existing mechanics and more a consequence of not taking appropriate precautions. Even then, instead of being so thoroughly fleeced you wonder if you did piss off some OOC you instead are hit with a bit more of a not-so-gentle reminder to maybe double-check your belongings, and perhaps consider a boost in the perception skill at the earliest opportunity (doesn't require practice to learn, just skill points).

It's been a while since I've tested stealing myself so I'm not sure how balanced it is now, but perhaps that'll give me enough motivation to roll a rogue one of these days and see for myself 8-)
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Rias
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Re: Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by Rias »

It was my hope that the Risk system would help prevent situations of over-stealing and keep it more to a handful of attempts, but it looks like we might need a bit more on top of that. I do plan to allow targeting specific containers, and balancing that with a more hard cooldown on successful pulls per thief per target could be a good solution for everyone. Lots of other good ideas in this thread too (thanks for the list format, Irylia). I appreciate people taking the time to post.
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Acarin
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Re: Picking Pockets/Stealing from PCs

Post by Acarin »

Some of these limiters do already exist. Getting caught adds 40 risk to the thief and also causes paranoia status which makes it hard to continue to steal from them... it is certainly rate limiting. They also see their thief and can follow up as they want.Thieving is not easy or super profitable most of the time so putting huge limitations on it seems unnecessary. There are many ways to counter it and valuable items that are small enough to be stolen can be easily registered. If house keys are ever added, they they also be exempt from stealing but that problem does not currently exist here. If someone chooses to sit in a road with 6 or 7k on them and goes afk, I as a thief see an opportunity. That first 400 riln pull is going to keep me going and I'm likely going to try to take as much treasure as possible because I see a perfect mark who keeps handing me more riln. I am really against limiting mechanics because someone is upset that something happened to them. They have the option of trying to rp it out and recover their belongings... or confront the thief... or do any number of things. Stealing does not have the steep consequences that it did previously... and revisiting it should not be a priority with all the other things that could improve the game.

In my entire time playing, I have definitely lifted less than 15k riln overall and maybe one uncommon item that could not just be directly bought. It may be frustrating for marks but it is not really a game changer and I really don't believe it needs additional limitations.

The only suggestion I would have is further limiting the scope of what can be stolen as well (meaning, crafted items of fine quality and above could be locked as well to prevent people from stealing things that are harder to come by... this is only because sheaths and some storage containers cannot be closed). Not that I wouldn't like the chance at that fine dagger... but I do understand the difficulty in procuring things like that sometimes.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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