Specialization primary skill costs

[Acarin]

I know the intent of the skill system is to make people make actual choices and limit ranges so that development across all skill ranges is a more reasonable task. That being said, my personal experience so far is that skill point become very limited very fast and this does not allow any diversification at all within certain specializations, particularly for combat oriented characters.

The caps certainly prevent certain imbalances but certain classes may require 5 high skills to fight effectively while other require 2 or 3. This means that you have to invest in all of these skills in order to fight and by the time you do that, there is no room for exploring the other things that make the game great. Maybe it would be nice to have a couple hundred points to pick up some swimming or climbing or bushcraft? Maybe I want to have the room to invest a couple hundred points into leatherworking or skinning as side activities. The current skill system basically tells me that isn't possible and players end up missing out on great additions where they could have fun but don't necessarily want to master.

So here's my proposal:
1) cap the number of overall skills someone can learn at a set number like 15 and do not count each toward the skill cap if less than 100. Do not allow someone to take less than 10 of a skill to start. Being forced to take a hit because other people abused this in the past and picked up 1 of a bunch of skills, for example, feels really limiting
2) To correct imbalances in requirements between specializations, I would suggest a reduced skill training cost for primary skills for a give specialization from 200 to 500 (maybe a minus 1 point per rank). You could add a skill point per rank above 600 to reflect the difficulty in becoming that skilled:
So 1-100: 1 skill point each
101-200: 1 skill point each
201-300: 2 skill points each
301-400: 3 skill points each
401-500: 4 skill points each
501-600: 6 skill points each
601-700: 8 skill points each
(Or something like this). This type of thing might apply for only 0-3 skills depending on how overpacked a particular specialization is considered. I'm not sure that this is the best way to approach but the skill system is just starting to feel very limited right now... particularly for combat characters.

[Irylia]

I agree it's really hard to build out a character's skill goals when your specialization requires a lot of different skills to really shine. Some of this has been mitigated with recent changes to Dodge or the fact that purely fun stuff like Lore has been removed as a unique skill. But it's still very challenging when playing certain class specs and certain skills are almost required to do well. If you look at the allowed skills in each guild/spec the list always far exceeds what anyone is actually able to get even close to accomplishing. You might see several skills you can max out and realize that it's actually only possible to really max out 2-3 if you want to do anything else at all. I'm not saying everyone should be able to max everything out. That would be bland. But I do think there should be more wiggle room for, say, warriors to try a craft (as an example). Currently by the time they get their ranged/melee, armor, shield/dodge set up, there's very little room for anything else. Being the types that get out in the world, climbing and swimming are almost required. Riding is necessary to help mitigate all the travel and weight of armor. Things like perception or meditation might be useful. But the fact is, because of the limitations of the point system as-is, it's very difficult to put points into useful things and still excel at your primary thing - fighting.

I don't have a great solution right now. I'm not sure Acarin's is the best way to go. But I do think it could use a little more tweaking. Maybe the easiest solution is that "general" skills not count against your total or that you have have separate totals for general vs profession vs other skills. Maybe, based on class, skills in certain areas cost more or less points. So a warrior can spend less points per tier in combat-skills, but might spend more points per tier in a craft. Very generic example with totally made up numbers below:

Scholars -> scholarly and general skills 50% off, crafting skills 25% off, martial skills full price.
Warriors -> martial and general skills 50% off, crafting skills 25% off, scholarly skills full price.
Adventurers -> martial and general skills 50% off, crafting skills and scholarly skills 25% off.
Crafters -> crafting skills 50% off, scholarly skills 25% off, general skills and martial skills full price.

Another possible solution is to take skills like: riding, climbing, swimming, and just put them into their own separate tracker. I feel like these in particular are things anyone could feasibly pick up to a certain point without any level of advanced training. And if people want to specialize in them it can be done through class advantages/training/abilities. These are skills that, without them, limit a character's ability to access the world. And while there is climbing assistance, there isn't help for the other two (that I'm aware of). Being able to train these three to a certain degree point-free, or at least to be able to use them on a very basic level point-free, would help a lot I think.

[Rias]

Can I get some examples of some builds people are wanting to put together but feel wouldn't be possible with the current setup? Being the developer I have a very biased view as well as the knowledge of how I plan to set up every aspect of the game, but I've put together a wide variety of character builds with the goals system, and while I've felt a few of them have felt a little strained, that is also the point of the system's limitations in the first place. I need a bit more detail to go on than just knowing people feel they don't have enough points.

In particular, I want to be able to compare someone's unsatisfying level 100 endgame goal setup achievable in the current system to one that they feel would be more acceptable for what they're hoping to achieve. Show me some propsed level 100 skill numbers that would feel more acceptable. I'm by no means unwilling to look at tweaking things, but I want to see exactly what people are hoping to be able to achieve if they were to have more points available in some way.

Also know that I do take the skill restrictions and limitations into consideration as I design the game. If more points were allowed in some way, I may end up tweaking skill expectations higher as a result.

[Rias]

take skills like: riding, climbing, swimming, and just put them into their own separate tracker. I feel like these in particular are things anyone could feasibly pick up to a certain point without any level of advanced training.

Are you running into a significant number of places you need to get to that you cannot with a baseline 100 in each?

[Rias]

certain classes may require 5 high skills to fight effectively

Can you give me an example of what you're expecting these 5 skills to be at in order to feel effective in combat? I'm inclined to believe this is a case of misunderstanding the skill expectations. No warrior class should feel they need to specialize in 5 different skills just to be effective as a fighter. There are certainly some core skills that a specialized fighter should feel they need to bump up quite high (Melee or Ranged). Additional skills are going to help, but they may be more supplemental than you realize, and not necessarily "need to keep matching my core Melee/Ranged skill".

[Lexx416]

I was actually pretty curious about people struggling with their points being spread thin, so I played around with goals for a ranger, which can be considered a reasonably "spread thin" class depending on what you want to do. My main character isn't a combat PC, so their goals and such probably wouldn't be very applicable.

I found with 10,000 skill points under the current system I could get the following skill goals

| --GENERAL--
| Bushcraft 500 |
| Climbing 500 |
| Perception 300 |
| Stealth 500 |
| Swimming 300 |
| Tracking 300 |
| |
| --COMBAT--
| Armor Use 100 |
| Dodge 500 |
| Ranged Combat 500 |
| |
| --SCHOLAR--
| Druidry 300 |
--+

And this seems pretty reasonable to me? I don't have any skills at 700 in this build, but I've also made a choice to have a really high bushcraft in this situation. I'd like my perception and tracking to be higher in an ideal world, but given the amount of skills I have at 500, this seems fair.

[Irylia]

take skills like: riding, climbing, swimming, and just put them into their own separate tracker. I feel like these in particular are things anyone could feasibly pick up to a certain point without any level of advanced training.

Are you running into a significant number of places you need to get to that you cannot with a baseline 100 in each?

I'm not currently, no. I'm anticipating the future. But if you're implying that 100 in each is all that's ever going to be necessary to get around (perhaps with assistance in cases, which is fine) then that's another matter as well and one I've been curious about. Are there skills you're not intending to need to be over certain thresholds ever? Like maybe some of them should have a soft cap that's far lower than 700 so players don't have false expectations about where to assign points. I've been trying to find out for a while what different levels of these skills will mean so I can more easily determine what I actually need set goals to. And I realize you might not know yet, yourself, but it would be very helpful information.

Also, even having to put 100 in each of those can cause issues with shifting goals to make an even 10,000 points. Those 300 points could have been used to raise something else to 200 level or to raise a 200 to 300, or they could be preventing you from taking a 500 to 600 and then having to put points into something you don't necessarily want just to get 10,000. Every point really does count and so having to invest 100 points in 3 different skills just to make sure you can get around has always seemed like a lot to me.

There are already places with no climbing skill check even though they are "climb" obstacles, you can float (theoretically - I haven't tried) without swimming. You can lead a horse without riding. And I know you already said you'll restrict diving to more just fun little nooks and things, but there's always that nagging part of me that says I need these skills to make sure I can still travel unrestricted if need-be for events or rescues (though that doesn't seem to be a thing in this game as much). That need makes it hard to put points where I really want them as opposed to where I feel I need them.

I can't speak for Acarin, but I think Nightblades in particular have more "core" skills necessary than say... Guardians or Dreadnaughts, or even other class types (though my Ranger is giving me pause too) - even if they don't all have to be set very high in points. Most of that has to do with the Stealth and Sorcery aspect. Some of it also has to do with the somewhat antagonistic nature of the spec. While it might be okay for someone playing neutral or good to set skills lower, for someone in the Nightblade life, it's going to likely (though not always) be a lot more about confrontation and antagonism, which means investing higher point values to be successful.

So it's Melee/Ranged (one or the other unless you really want both), Dodge, Sorcery, Stealth. Armor can be kept low, thankfully, but is still fairly necessary. Dodge can probably be lower too since there's some rolled into the main combat skill now and if you're sneaky enough you may not need it. Sorcery has a low cap. But Stealth still should be pretty high. And with that you're going to want Perception so you can also defend yourself from other sneaky things. Then you had to go and add in things like Artifice and Locksmithing which are just cruelly tempting to people who played "that other game" and were never allowed to use them (this is NOT me asking you to take them away). So while the absolutely necessary might still be restricted, to effectively and enjoyably build your character out, you'll want much more than you're able to get. Add to that the fact that once you've managed to get something you feel you can settle for, there's no space for any kind of craft or auto-repeating activity and you feel like you're pigeon-holed into a single playstyle with no alternative means of bucket fill or more idle-progression. Adding in some kind of auto-repeating tasks or other options for combat-types might alleviate this and make the "spread' seem better.

I don't really want to share any of my actual builds here, but I've shown some to others before. It's not that I feel the builds aren't feasible (or necessarily reasonable, as Lexx said), they're just never quite where I want them to be to feel "safe" in playing my character how I want. That's not to say I need to always win. Some of the best RP I've had with others has been when my character is on the losing side. But having been on both sides of the playing field, it's nice to at least be able to put up a decent challenge against specialists or gangs and to feel like you can live up to the backstory you make for yourself.

[Acarin]

I typed out a long post but it looks like it was lost when I tried to submit so will keep it short. Damn.

Basically, I agree with what Irylia just posted. For nightblades, perception, stealth, dodge, melee, sorcery, arcana, artifice, armor use and acrobatics all need to be in a build at some reasonable level, with the core 3 (stealth, dodge, and melee) being higher. Stealth is not set up in a way that dodge can be sacrificed.

Compare this to a dreadnaught that likely only needs armor, shield, and melee for full functionality.

Basically, the baseline investment to maintain the same level of combat effectiveness ends up being about 1000 or higher points different. This means certain specializations have less room to pick up basic skills or things that make the game feel less repetitive (or help with general exploration - i say this after being stuck because I couldn't spare a point for swimming). The only skill I have that is NOT directly for combat is locksmithing... and even there, not sure what high hunting area lockbox look like (it would be a shame to not fully invest in this knowing that I might not be able to use it for my own hunting eventually...)

Basically, it feels like I can't justify the expense of investing in anything other than combat right now without sacrificing combat. I assume that different specializations feel this to different degrees. It looks worse for nightblades, bards, and rangers versus others (for intended functionality) although havent tried to build a bard or ranger yet. There definitely seems to be a huge discrepancy in freedom to invest though.

[Rias]

I feel like this is coming back to having to decide how you want to stack your character. Part of the point of this system is to prevent cookie-cutters or no-brainer-max-it-out skills. I don't assume every class is going to max (or near-max) every skill that is useful to their concept, or offered by their guild/class over the default 400. Having a wider variety available opens them up for diversification, but that doesn't mean they should be able to learn overall more than other people. It always comes down to deciding how to spend the points. Let's take Nightblades as an example.

===

First we have Ash. Named so because he wants to go all Pokemon theme song and be the very best, like no one ever was - when it comes to killing things nightblade-style. Okay, so this guy is hyperfocused on combat to the point of being the absolute best possible in the assassination department, meaning some capped skills. As should be expected, he'll have to sacrifice non-combat because he is seriously super-specializing. Here's the build he came up with.

Arcana: 100
Climb: 100
Meditation: 100
Riding: 100
Swim: 100
Armor: 200
Sorcery: 200
Acrobatics: 300
Perception: 300
Stealth: 600
Dodge: 700
Melee: 700

Nice. Guy has 2 capped combat skills and Stealth at 600; he's not messing around. In addition to capped Stealth, he can also utilize novice-level Arcana and Sorcery to pile on additional stealth-enhancing effects. Super stealthy assassin indeed. Capped Melee and Dodge ensure he's at the top of his game in physical combat, and can hold his own even out in the open without stealth if he gets spotted. Enough Armor to fight quite comfortably in light leather armor. 300 Acrobatics for increased tumble/flip chances, and leftover points allowed for 100 Meditation for help warding off mental effects.

200 Sorcery for those sweet yet-to-be-released sorcery abilities that require 200 to learn.

Not exceptionally perceptive at 300, but that's the tradeoff for the stacked offense. And after all, he doesn't have to worry much about enemies sneaking up on him when they can't find him in the first place due to his ridiculously-stacked stealth. He has novice climb and swim to traverse the basic areas, and riding to save on wilderness traveltime and food costs. No locksmithing, because who cares - he'll just murderize everything in sight and get someone else to open any boxes for him later.

===

Now we have Natasha. She's okay not being at the very tippy-top of the combat power curve. She's absolutely capable and better than most, but she prefers to bring some other skills to the table besides combat, so she sacrifices a bit for that sweet utility. Ash might have an edge on her in a fight, but she loves to laugh in his face whenever he gets stopped in his tracks by a locked door or some rough terrain. Here's her build.

Arcana: 100
Buschraft: 100
Linguistics: 100
Riding: 100
Sorcery: 100
Armor: 200
Acrobatics: 200
Climb: 300
Swim: 300
Tracking: 300
Locksmithing: 400
Perception: 400
Dodge: 500
Stealth: 500
Melee: 600

She's not bothered to cap anything, which has saved her a lot of points to be spent elsewhere. The defense pushdown from her Stealth helps make up for her lower-than-capped Melee, and her occult buffs from Arcana and Sorcery help make up for her lower-than-capped Stealth. Unlike Ash, she doesn't feel the need to go for overkill specialization. 200 Armor allows for plenty of comfort in light leather.

400 Locksmithing means she'll be perfectly proficient for most locks, but of course will come across some she can't crack - alas, Nightblades cap at 400 so that's the best she can do. Even the toughest lockbox ranges are randomized with a floor of 0, though, so she can still handle at least some of her own loot drop boxes even from capped mobs. Not too shabby. Added to the ability to break into some areas behind locked doors, this is a very fun and useful skill to have invested in.

400 Perception, because she likes keeping an eye on the goings-on. She also has quite decent Climb and Swim, which opens up more terrain-locked areas for her - or at least, access to alternate routes that may be safer or quicker. She might bring a rope and lower it for Ash, if he's willing to pony up the riln for her assistance. She also has the recommended 100 Riding for getting around the wilderness efficiently on a mount.

300 Tracking, because isn't it awesome to track your prey across the land? And the 100 Bushcraft adds to the ability for Natash to better survive in adverse conditions when cut off from civilization or just feeling outdoorsy, allowing some improved foraging and basic survival crafting. Handy.

200 Acrobatics for the extra tumble/flip defense. Plus, leaping down from heights to land gracefully is not only nice in avoiding the hurt-feet/legs damage, but also so, so stylin.

And 100 Linguistics because hey, it's nice to be able to try and decipher the odd text she might find lying around, or pick out words from conversations in a language people don't expect her to know anything about.

===

Lastly we have Greg. He fancies himself more of an adventurer (in spirit, not in guild) than a straight murder machine, and he enjoys being cunning and "shady" more than threatening or menacing. He certainly enjoys a good ambush from the shadows against a foe (he chose Nightblade, after all), but he's okay with having some encounters he won't have an upper hand in, and some higher-tier combat zones being too dangerous for him. "You don't need to be able to take on capped mobs in order to level up to 100," he sagely reminds his friends in OOC tells when they ask why he doesn't cap Melee. Here's his build:

Acrobatics: 100
Arcana: 100
Armor: 100
Riding: 100
Sorcery: 100
Storytelling: 100
Buschraft: 200
Dodge: 300
Climb: 400
Locksmithing: 400
Perception: 400
Swim: 400
Artifice: 500
Melee: 500
Stealth: 500

At 500 Melee, 300 Dodge, and 500 Stealth he's a bit lacking in combat, but with a little help from buffs via Arcana and Sorcery he's still plenty capable of being a terror against the majority of foes he'll come across in the world.

Even more than Natasha, Greg likes to go places. 400 Climb, Swim, and Locksmith give him the most exploration freedom he can achieve as a Nightblade. There aren't many places he won't be able to go. And his 400 Perception makes him confident he'll have a good chance of spotting sneakies that aren't specialists.

500 Artifice, because artifice is just fun. Sleight of hand tricks, palming items, and increases his Dirtkick which he can use to wreck a foe's Perception and then suddenly his respectable-but-still-200-below-cap 500 Stealth isn't much of a problem, is it? And of course, the opportunity to get those sticky fingers pulling in some extra coin - particularly satisfying against those who have wronged or offended him.

200 Bushcraft, because he likes to feel he can survive on his own out in the wild if need be, and it gives some crafting opportunities to scratch that crafting itch.

100 Storytelling because hey: Why not? He's an adventurer in spirit, he loves to tell his own tall tales (and get paid/experienced doing it).

He could have joined the Adventurer Guild to become a Bard or Rogue or Treasure Hunter, but the idea of the sneaky sorcerous assassin was too fun to pass up. He's able to pull off the feel of both with his build, being blessed with the ability to feel content despite not being the-very-best at any one particular thing.

===

So there are some build ideas I had for the Nightblade, based on what kind of expectations one might have going into it. Greg's is actually my personal favorite one, but I've never been big on all-out fighters so that's my bias talking.

I'd still really like to see some actual numbers people are wishing they could have, but cannot achieve because of the constraints of the points system. Do keep in mind the notes in Natasha's build above about how she depends on buffs to make up for less-than-capped skills, which I had in mind while coming up with the Nightblade class. In general, I'd much prefer to provide guild/class abilities that bolster skills and allow for skill diversification despite lower actual numbers, rather than start fiddling with how skillpoints are spent in certain situations which can get wonky real fast.

And of course if one wants to be the very ultimate best possible killer ever, they are then looking more at a build like Ash's - and I really think it should be expected that such a character would experience severe limitations outside of combat due to the hyper-overkill-specialization.

[Acarin]

I get where you're coming from but take that first or second build and compare it to a similar build for a dreadnaught, for example.

Our point is not that we can't make an acceptable build. It's that points are far more prohibitive and spread thin for some combat specializations over than others. I understand if that is intentional and I don't think any of are saying that we can't make a build we're happy with and willing to accept. The point is that the point requirements make it feel like it is only worth investing in core skills for the class and there isn't much room to expand out. You can do it, but there are big sacrifices (meaning, Greg is not a combat build at all). Im happy to provide my build and where I'm like to be but will send over email instead as I'd prefer not to share publicly. This might also be more of an issue around diversity in ability requirements for nightblades specifically. Im curious about how combat rangers are feeling if anyone is building this.