Specialization primary skill costs

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Acarin
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

Post by Acarin »

Also, Ash doesn't have artifice which means that dirtkick, which is very important for nightblades, won't be effective for him...
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
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nobody
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

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Acarin wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:00 pm Also, Ash doesn't have artifice which means that dirtkick, which is very important for nightblades, won't be effective for him...
Ash uses dirtkick... it's not very effective.
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Rias
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

Post by Rias »

Acarin wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:00 pm Also, Ash doesn't have artifice which means that dirtkick [...] won't be effective for him
Correct. Ash depends on his high Stealth and associated buffs, rather than using Dirtkick. One important thing to understand is that a lot of these things are options or supplemental, not requirements. Just because an option exists doesn't mean a character is expected to utilize it, let alone maximize it. Dirtkick won't be useful for Ash, but he has maximized his Stealth capability anyway so he doesn't feel the need to depend on Dirtkick. Would it be useful to shift some points around somehow and pick up some Artifice as well so he could use Dirtkick effectively? Sure, that would be nice in various situations for Ash, but it would require sacrifices elsewhere that he's not willing to make. Greg on the other hand has lower Stealth, but also a healthy Artifice skill, which means he'll be able to more effectively utilize Dirtkick to make up for his lacking Stealth. He wanted Artifice anyway for its own innate merits as part of his character idea, and the associated perks of effective Dirtkick help make up for something he hadn't maximized.

It's a balancing act by design. Options, decisions, picking and choosing. There's no standard single viable build required to be a Nightblade, and that's 100% the intent. Nobody is expected to effectively utilize every single option available to them on their skill or ability list. This is particularly true for the more diverse classes, and this should be seen as a perk, not a penalty. More options is a good thing, even if it means a character can't utilize every one at the same time.
I get where you're coming from but take that first or second build and compare it to a similar build for a dreadnaught, for example.
All right, here are some Dreadnought builds I came up with.

The Ash Dreadnought:

Arcana: 100 Utility. Distyr in particular, so twohanded weapons can be wielded in dark areas instead of having to hold a light source in one hand and a onehanded weapon in the other.
Climb: 100 Basic getting around the world
Swim: 100 Basic getting around the world (and not drowning)
Meditation: 200 Defense against mental effects/insanity.
Riding: 400 Mounted combat, aw yeah. Nothing more terrifying than a warhorse-riding Dreadnought charging at you.
Armor: 700 Heaviest armor, heaviest penalties and skill checks. Additionally useful for future armor-based abilities.
Dodge: 700 Supplemental defense. Heavy armor specialization doesn't mean there aren't hits out there you don't want to be taking. Even with the penalties to dodge in heavy armor, more defense is still more defense.
Melee: 700 A given. Melee combat is what this guy lives for.

That's 8 skills total, compared to the Nightblade combat build's 12. Largely because this guy has 3 skills capped, instead of just 2. And being the hyperfocused one, he is absolutely going to maximize his combat skills. No perception, which is kind of a bummer, but then he does have nice heavy armor so hopefully there's not too much armor chink used against him and he can just take care of any stealth attackers by surviving the ambush and retaliating. Maybe an alternative build would swap the Meditation for Perception, or lower Riding a bit to squeeze in some Perception. I think this is what I would go with for a combat-above-all-else Dreadnought though. I've got a thing for Meditation, particularly when it comes to Dreadnoughts.

===

The Natasha Dreadnought:

Arcana: 100 Still wants Distyr for twohanded combat and off-hand punches/blade-catches in dark areas.
Metallurgy: 100
Mining: 100
Metalworking: 200 This and Metallurgy/Mining because it's always handy to be able to repair your own gear. Some basic crafting also scratches the crafting itch, plus effective non-combat source of money and experience.
Meditation: 200 Unwilling to go lower than the first on Meditation, because what Dreadnought wants to be fully susceptible to fear effects and the like? Pfft
Climb: 400 Exploration!
Swim: 400 Exploration!
Perception: 400 For those pesky sneaky people, and the additional if admittedly minor perk of increased chances to find those rare hidden items/passages while exploring.
Riding: 400 Unwilling to give up the mounted combat angle - it's just too fun and too effective, and 400 isn't too massive an investment.
Dodge: 500 Not as much as Ash. More willing to depend on armor when taking the additional hits. More dangerous and more expensive (due to increased need of healing/repairs), but saved a ton of skillpoints to be used elsewhere.
Armor Use: 600 Willing to take some more frequent armor penalties in the interest of freeing up skill points. Not willing to drop to 500 - there aren't any occult buffs to make up for less skill on this one.
Melee: 600 Doesn't have Stealth to rely on for pushing down enemy defense, so this is going to hurt more than Nightblade Natasha's. Mounted combat will help make up for it in some cases, but mounts are far more restricted area-wise than stealth is.

Like her Nightblade counterpart, Dreadnought Natasha is also into exploration. She doesn't get the benefit of being able to sneak around hostile area, unfortunately, nor can she lockpick to get into locked areas or open her own boxes. The metal repairs and minor crafting are nice options for when she wants to have a more chill day without so much combat, though, and can make decent money and experience doing that, as well as feel she's contributing to the community by supplying the market with basic metal components and repairing gear for other people.

===
Greg is not a combat build at all
I strongly disagree. 500 Melee plus the defense pushdown from Stealth is plenty effective. Never mind that I don't think builds that aren't ideal against capped enemies should be considered "not combat builds at all". But different strokes for different folks.
Our point is not that we can't make an acceptable build. It's that points are far more prohibitive and spread thin for some combat specializations over than others.
I think this is again coming from the incorrect assumption that if an option is available, it must be utilized. Some classes have more options than others, which can indeed make them feel spread more thinly if a player insists on trying to utilize every single one of said options. But as I've harped, they should be considered as options, not requirements. I'm not saying it's not some form of blessing that some classes have simpler builds due to decreased options, but then they could complain that they have fewer options to diversify into than the more complex classes. It goes both ways.
This might also be more of an issue around diversity in ability requirements for nightblades specifically.
See my above comments about options and supplements rather than requirements. Just because an option is there doesn't mean players are required to utilize it. Options, not requirements.

Now, all the above (and previous posts) said, I'm still more than happy to look at specific cases that might feel too expensive points-wise. I really need specifics though, not generalizations. Maybe some people think metal-based crafting is too much with 3 skills involved (Mining, Metallurgy, Metalworking). Point out specific cases and propose a solution and I'll happily look at that. I realize a lot of this probably comes from the fact that systems aren't still fully fleshed out and explored yet, and I think people are basing a lot of expectations around having to be at or near cap in a skill in order to to be considered "good" at it.

I'm sure there's also some FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) going on. Take the climbing/swimming thing as an example. 400 is going to get people past the majority of terrain instances. But will there be those occasional places where the higher investors get to shine, that others can't get into? Sure. Yes, there will even be the rare climb or swim that requires the full 700, so those people who were crazy enough to make that massive skill investment because it's part of their core character concept can feel all awesome. So having an all-or-nothing attitude is going to make it really difficult to feel content in this game, and I get that. It's a downside to the system as designed. It wasn't the case with my previous work where with enough effort anyone could max any and every skill (well, aside from guild-restricted ones). That was a cool concept and a lot of people enjoyed the freedom of it, and that's awesome. It had some facets I didn't like though, so this time around I've been trying things differently.
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Karjus
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

Post by Karjus »

Ugh. So jealous of that dodge. I wish I could do it. Oh well. Just more work for Physicians I guess.
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Acarin
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

Post by Acarin »

I understand your point, Rias, but I think that the 8 versus 12 skills for dreadnaught versus nightblade makes a point too. A dreadnaught can choose to max their combat entirely with some skill points remaining while a nightblade can get no where near maxing even with full investment. If that's by design, understood.

My suggestion would then be to package climbing, swimming, and riding into a single skill (basic exploration) that caps at 100. To go higher, you would need to buy the skills individually.

I would also suggest packaging tracking, skinning, bushcraft, and maybe fishing or cooking (not as sure) into a single skill (basic survival) that caps at 100 as well.

They would still require a point investment but would not be an overwhelming investment if you never want to get good at any of these but still want basic functionality.

The individual skill, if higher, would replace the packaged skill. I think Iryla was suggesting something similar before.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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Irylia
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

Post by Irylia »

I like the idea of being marginal at things you want to dabble in as a "bundled" skill. I could see them being things like: tracking, skinning, perception - fishing, cooking, farming - swimming, climbing, riding (as suggested). Maybe just bundles of 2-3 very minor skills. Maybe for the farming one you don't even get your own farm but can use a community garden with a max of 5-10 plots. I think something like this would really help alleviate some of the concerns with being so strictly tied to a skills concept that might not fully fit the character you want to be able to play mechanically or rp-wise.
Acarin
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

Post by Acarin »

exploration - medical, climbing, swimming
survival - bushcraft, skinning, tracking
agriculture - animal husbandry, farming, cooking
performing - dancing, music, storytelling
traveling - riding, climbing, swimming
hunting - perception, tracking, fishing

Just a few examples.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Acarin
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

Post by Acarin »

Could have a couple basic combat ones (2-3 skill bundles) toi
Basic offense - melee, ranged
Basic defense - dodge, shield, perception
Basic protection - armor, meditation, perception
Basic melee combat - melee, dodge
Basic ranged combat - ranged, dodge
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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Lexx416
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

Post by Lexx416 »

I don't really like the idea of this, unless the bundled skills acted as the absolute bare minimum needed to deal with the most basic challenges presented in the game.

If people want to climb things that require climbing, I don't think it's unfair, or unreasonable, that they invest 100 skill points in climbing. Or swimming. Or bushcraft. Or melee. Or whatever.

If someone wants as many of their combat skills to be as high value as possible, there is a consequence to that action. Which is that they are left unable to perform tasks that are not directly related to combat.
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Irylia
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Re: Specialization primary skill costs

Post by Irylia »

I don't think it should be as extensive as some of the examples are getting, but I still think there's some room for bundled skills. Bushcraft is like a bundle all by itself so I wouldn't want it to be included in any of them. But I do think there are some aspects of the game that need to be more streamlined if this isn't considered - this aside from the combined crafts potential future thing coming out. There are some very basic aspects of living a rugged, lost lands life, that seem to take a lot of skills. Hunting is an example of this. To do hunting to any real degree you need ranged, perception, stealth, tracking, skinning (optional since you can butcher without). That's 3-4 skills just to be able to get meat. It's why I made that other post about providing options for non-stealth/tracking related hunting of minor critters. I don't think most parts of the game are that extreme. Some of the bundles would be just to help out those who want very basic core skills so they still spend at least something, but don't have to sacrifice as much as they do now.
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