Skill decrease

Have a new general feature to suggest, or think one should be tweaked? Share your ideas here.
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Rias
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Re: Skill decrease

Post by Rias »

A lot has come up in this thread! I'll do my best to respond to anything I have meaningful input about.

Recipe points are simply determined by how much skill you have, so if you reduce a skill, you're effectively reducing your recipe points associated with that skill. That is to say: recipe points aren't independently tracked. It's literally how many skill points you have in the skill.

Unlearning recipes is going to be tricky. There's going to be that worry of someone learning a recipe just to make one of that thing they need, and then unlearning the recipe to free up the points again - and then what's the point of having limited recipe points in the first place? Another long-time-based unlearning process is the best middle ground I can think of. Don't really know yet how to handle skill points being reduced to the point that you have too few recipe points for the recipes you currently have.
I never enjoyed the fact that in other games you might go to unlearn an ability and (if already capped) would not be able to learn a new one until the timer ran out - essentially making your character less capable than others during that time by having no access to the one being unlearned or a new one.
That's kind of the point, though. I feel like the unlearning process should be something you have to really consider, and it should come with some pains to discourage overuse or overdependence. I'm for allowing some limited backtracking, but I don't want it to end up feeling like abilities/recipes/skills are easily "hot swappable". (That's a generalized exaggeration to make a worry of mine clear. I'm not saying you were asking for that.)

I'm not particularly keen on a test server or environment. It's essentially one more way to remove people from the main game environment, and I think it cheapens the experience somewhat overall regarding discovery and progression.

Regarding points of no return: There'll be a threshold below which you could completely unlearn a skill, I think, though I'd want that threshold to be quite low. If you're just taking something up to see if you can fill a role because nobody else is doing it (at the moment) and/or to get a basic feel for it, you shouldn't need to get very far into it to understand what the day-to-day is going to feel like and whether it's worth investing further into. If it's not already determined to be an integral part of your character, I wouldn't suggest going any further than 100 if you're already that far and still just not feeling it.

Swimming/diving: You need 200 skill to dive and search for items in applicable places (like just off the New Emberlight dock), and 300 to go down into significantly deep underwater rooms. These are meant as fun extra perks for those who invest into swimming, and not as a point at which the skill becomes, say, something that your character primarily does all day in order to make a living and steadily advance. They're just little things to do with the skill beyond simply being able to make harder swim checks. Swimming is an exploration skill, and not intended as a primary money- or experience-maker, or something a character spends the majority of their time doing like crafting or combat. So if swimming isn't your character's "thing" and you're taking the skill just because you're wondering what diving entails, I can save you some time: You can dive in a small handful of rooms to occasionally find some items, and can get into a small handful of underwater rooms. (I'll add this info to the wiki.)
For things like swimming, riding, climbing, meditation, trading, husbandry, linguistics etc. it would be great if there was a lot more clarity in general.
Agreed, but part of the problem is that I don't have a lot of clarity on what exactly they'll do at all levels yet myself, so I can't communicate what I don't know, and I'm hesitant to share ideas I'm uncertain about at the risk of changing my mind and ending up misleading people. If you are lacking information you need about a skill to make decisions about it, you should A) consider not investing into the skill beyond what you know is available and want from it B) poke me to develop the skill further or put up more information about it if the skill is already further developed and just lacking documentation.


==========

One more idea for the unlearning process: Rather than a simple time-based thing, it could require channeling experience toward. So if you want to unlearn a skill, you set it to unlearning, and then experience you earn is going toward reducing that skill instead of toward your next level. This requires some sort of sacrifice for those below the level cap (you're slowing down your leveling), and also keeps experience relevant post-cap for those who have gotten there and decided to switch up their skills a bit (keeping in mind points of no return). Even for people using the easiest and most effort-free meta means of experience gain possible to do so, it still means it's requiring at least some kind of action and effort instead of just setting a skill to unlearning and then sitting around AFK or logged out while you wait out a timer.
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Agelity
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Re: Skill decrease

Post by Agelity »

Rias wrote: Unlearning recipes is going to be tricky. There's going to be that worry of someone learning a recipe just to make one of that thing they need, and then unlearning the recipe to free up the points again - and then what's the point of having limited recipe points in the first place? Another long-time-based unlearning process is the best middle ground I can think of. Don't really know yet how to handle skill points being reduced to the point that you have too few recipe points for the recipes you currently have.
Don't blame you for this struggle. I know that at least for myself I may find myself going "I want to invest x number of skill points which means I have x number of recipe points" which would then mean that I'll need to be careful about which recipes I pick up, since I know if a new recipe is released down the line and I've used up my available recipe points I'd probably be looking at a few recipes I never even touched but learned anyway and kicking myself for taking them and not waiting.
Rias wrote:Regarding points of no return: There'll be a threshold below which you could completely unlearn a skill, I think, though I'd want that threshold to be quite low. If you're just taking something up to see if you can fill a role because nobody else is doing it (at the moment) and/or to get a basic feel for it, you shouldn't need to get very far into it to understand what the day-to-day is going to feel like and whether it's worth investing further into. If it's not already determined to be an integral part of your character, I wouldn't suggest going any further than 100 if you're already that far and still just not feeling it.
I'd be pretty content with this, personally. Some skills start to shine a bit later than others, but I think the general gist of what the skill can provide is determined earlier on.
Rias wrote:Swimming/diving: You need 200 skill to dive and search for items in applicable places (like just off the New Emberlight dock), and 300 to go down into significantly deep underwater rooms.
Well I was off by a few skill points. Apologies for any misinformation!
Rias wrote:One more idea for the unlearning process: Rather than a simple time-based thing, it could require channeling experience toward. So if you want to unlearn a skill, you set it to unlearning, and then experience you earn is going toward reducing that skill instead of toward your next level. This requires some sort of sacrifice for those below the level cap (you're slowing down your leveling), and also keeps experience relevant post-cap for those who have gotten there and decided to switch up their skills a bit (keeping in mind points of no return). Even for people using the easiest and most effort-free meta means of experience gain possible to do so, it still means it's requiring at least some kind of action and effort instead of just setting a skill to unlearning and then sitting around AFK or logged out while you wait out a timer.
I like this idea, just curious what your thoughts are regarding having it be toggled? Like, if someone wants to go from 150 to 100 skill points, would they be stuck in that unlearning mode until they reached the 100 skill points (gaining skill points back in the process), or would they be able to toggle back to gaining experience for other skills with the skill being unlearned unable to change until it's turned back to unlearning. As in, is the unlearned goal set before the process starts or is it just until someone decides they've dropped the skill enough (or as far as they can manage it)?
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Re: Skill decrease

Post by Rias »

Regarding recipe points and newer recipes coming out that weren't previously available - I think the nature of this phenomenon would at least warrant occasional chances for people to select a few recipes to give up when a batch of new ones come out. Because I get it, there's that hesitation to use up all your limited points, because what if another recipe is released later and I've already got all my goals/skills set and I don't have room for more? So yeah, maybe I'll switch to releasing batches of recipes in waves, and when these releases happen, give some unlearning opportunities for people to make room for the new recipes. And also, if the recipe list gets significantly bigger, I can always lower overall recipe point requirements across the board to accommodate that.

Regarding the skill unlearning toggle: Yeah, I don't see any issue with allowing it to be toggled at will, without restriction. So you could set a skill to unlearn from 150 to 100, and from there you could at any time toggle whether you want your experience going toward your unlearning skills or your leveling-up.
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nobody
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Re: Skill decrease

Post by nobody »

I really like the idea of channeling experience toward unlearning skills. To me, it sends the message that if you want to do this, you should really want to do it, but maybe you want to focus on leveling up first instead of leveling back down.

Regarding skill unlearning into negative recipe points, I can only see that being functional with some kind of recipe unlearning, either tied directly to skill unlearning or as an independent feature. My opinions are
  • If recipe unlearning is tied in to skill decreases, then any unlearning that drops you into the negative should then force you to pick a recipe to unlearn. This would allow people to potentially lower skill to unlearn recipes, but I'm more ok with that if they're paying experience to do so. Maybe have it cost extra experience if you have to unlearn a recipe?
  • If unlearning is an independent feature, then you should be barred from lowering your skill into negative recipe points until you've unlearned a recipe first, thus preventing negative recipe points.
Agelity
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Re: Skill decrease

Post by Agelity »

nobody wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:05 pm
  • If recipe unlearning is tied in to skill decreases, then any unlearning that drops you into the negative should then force you to pick a recipe to unlearn. This would allow people to potentially lower skill to unlearn recipes, but I'm more ok with that if they're paying experience to do so. Maybe have it cost extra experience if you have to unlearn a recipe?
  • If unlearning is an independent feature, then you should be barred from lowering your skill into negative recipe points until you've unlearned a recipe first, thus preventing negative recipe points.
I could almost see a case in which unlearning skill points is the way to unlearn some recipes. Lower skill by 5 or whatever to unlearn a recipe, raise it back up by 5 and learn a new recipe. My argument there would be that many of us get rusty at skills and forget how to make things and to learn something new need to spend time relearning that specific thing. Kills two birds with one stone. My hesitation is that it still feels like it's awkward and clunky (and prone to errors) compared to maybe a separate recipe list adjustment.

Regarding that, a thought I had is that recipes that you haven't touched in a while could become capable of being "forgotten" and new recipes subsequently relearned. Could function similarly to the ability reset, though I'm iffy on the 30 day requirement for a recipe compared to an ability. That'd probably be quite the recipe mechanic overhaul.
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