Animal Refuse

[Irylia]

Thanks for the color coding. It's made it way easier to tell how bad things are at just a glance.

And sorry to keep harping on about the poop, but after testing this out for another week or so though it seems like there's still an issue with over-pooping or poop having too much of a detrimental effect for the effort. I have two small animal shelters at capacity and the poop seems to accumulate in one first, then the other, but as long as either of them is "extremely filthy" it seems to impact production. Even with logging in multiple times a day to clean them out, it's severely hindering milk (and possibly wool - though that's harder to tell). With the same amount of time logged in/cleaning, my large animal shelter (which is not at capacity) seems to have no hindrance on milk production compared to before this started. I feel like a shelter being used to its full extent shouldn't make it this much more challenging to maintain and having to clear out refuse multiple times per day for an animal to keep up production at a somewhat normal rate seems excessive to me. I would also like to think that an animal shelter could avoid being "extremely filthy" in a single day, but at current rates it seems to happen multiple times daily.

Possible tweaks:
- Further reduce the amount of poop per cycle (this time for smaller livestock - goats/sheep)
- Reduce the impact poop has on production. Being extremely filthy for a few hours maybe shouldn't impact as much as being extremely filthy for over a day.
- Even out how poop is distributed per shelter.
- Make it so that as long as one shelter is of a reasonable cleanliness, production isn't impacted.
- Reduce the number of times animals poop per day (yes, I've mentioned this before). It currently seems to be 3-4 times currently and if you miss a single load for any significant period in a fully-used shelter, it blocks things up. Even reducing it to twice a day would make a big difference, provided some of the other tweaks are implemented so if you login a few hours after the dump it's not spoiling things.
- Make it so that shelter->poop capacity more equally matches shelter->animal capacity. A shelter being used 100% should theoretically still only get as much refuse per stall as a shelter used at 20% per cycle (if going the stalls route). If it's just an open lean-to type shelter then they really shouldn't be pooping much in there at all anyway.
- Implement the auto-repeating soon (if possible) to help with efficiency.

Please keep in mind (regarding poop capacity) that the shelters are really only visibly "used" when it's bad weather and animals are huddling under them for warmth/dryness - or possibly overnight for protection. Otherwise, the poop is pretty much supposedly just out in pastures getting trampled into the earth or decaying and re-used naturally. I'm also sure you're aware that the more time players have to spend maintaining farms multiple times a day, the less they're able to contribute in other ways as productive members of society in COGG. If I spend multiple logins taking time to clear out poop just so I feel like I'm able to keep things working for my main character then that's less time I'm able to spend doing other things like playing an alt that actually gets to explore the world, or working on other skills to keep the market supplied with needed goods. And I feel less inclined to stay logged in to do other things after cleaning anyway because it's already eaten into my day and is constantly nagging at the back of my mind that I need to check my farm. Whereas before I felt comfortable being able to login once or twice a day to tidy things up and not stress out about it impacting things negatively - then felt free to work on other activities in-game or go about my day. I realize I've said some of these things before, but it's still how I feel after further testing with the current implementation.

Again, I really appreciate the effort put in so far and the feedback given by Agelity and Rias. I just think there's still some work to do on this before it's at a place where I would personally feel comfortable keeping this character concept. I would also really love to hear from some of those players out there who have even more livestock than I do (because I don't even really have that much) and see how this is working out for you guys. Ultimately mine is just one voice and one opinion. If everyone else thinks it's working fine or no further changes are felt needed, then maybe it really is just time for me to consider a different direction for my character or at least different types/amounts of livestock.

[Rias]

I'm looking at evenly distributing animals among shelters instead of simply filling up one before assigning animals to the next - hopefully that will help.

One thing to keep in mind is that this animal refuse change was more of a balance change than a realism one. This is why it doesn't account for, say, animals pooping elsewhere outside the shelters, and why it all builds up within the shelters themselves. It also builds up more quickly than you might expect in real-world time, but then again we've got sheep that grow completely full coats in a week (and crops that grow from seeds to ready to harvest in about the same time), which also seems too fast for real-world expectations. These are in the interest of this being a game, which requires some deviations from reality in order to be playable and balanced.

A concern with farming and ranching that I've mentioned before is that while everyone else needs to be logged in and actively utilizing their skillls to get results - that is to say, as soon as they stop actively using the skill, they stop receiving further benefit from it - farmers and ranchers typically pop in once a day, do their chores all at once, and then log out or go about other business while their crops and animals passively grow/produce for the rest of the day. With that in mind, I see two options for farming and ranching:

1. The current path, where more upkeep chores are introduced that require farmers and ranchers to be spending more time actively utilizing their skills in order to get the full potential from their crops/animals.

2. Facilitate the more casual "knock out all the chores in a row once per day and then be free to log out or pursue other activities in-game until tomorrow" idea and significantly reduce both the chores and the production/profits of farming and ranching.

Any thoughts on that from our local farmers and ranchers? Or anyone else who has opinions on the matter, really.

[Agelity]

1. The current path, where more upkeep chores are introduced that require farmers and ranchers to be spending more time actively utilizing their skills in order to get the full potential from their crops/animals.

2. Facilitate the more casual "knock out all the chores in a row once per day and then be free to log out or pursue other activities in-game until tomorrow" idea and significantly reduce both the chores and the production/profits of farming and ranching.

Any thoughts on that from our local farmers and ranchers? Or anyone else who has opinions on the matter, really.

At least for myself I'm a little torn between them. I actually like the idea of having extra chores to keep busy while the animals and plants do their thing, but I kind of like the idea of having a variety of options to choose from as well so it doesn't feel like the day is filled exclusively with poo-shoveling.

Could be something like trying to catch vermin or taking care of animals that are falling sick, repairing buildings/fencing (or destroying... goodness knows I have a few structures I wouldn't mind turning into scrap), or something else. Perhaps the higher the relevant skill the quicker the chores will be or the longer the effects will last; someone with 100 animal husbandry can probably handle their daily chores quickly enough with the small farm size, someone with 400 might be busy for a long while if they have a proportionally sized farm.

Could also consider some other expenses related to maintenance that might save some extra time, but come at a higher cost (and cut into the profits gained from the increased productivity). I don't have a ton of ideas off the top of my head, save maybe some costs for medicine to cure sick animals (depending on the severity could be a small payment or something that requires a few days of recovering after a higher treatment cost).

In general I guess I'd probably defer to the farmers/ranchers with larger operations, but I think there may be an answer that lies somewhere between those suggestions.

[nobody]

1. The current path, where more upkeep chores are introduced that require farmers and ranchers to be spending more time actively utilizing their skills in order to get the full potential from their crops/animals.

2. Facilitate the more casual "knock out all the chores in a row once per day and then be free to log out or pursue other activities in-game until tomorrow" idea and significantly reduce both the chores and the production/profits of farming and ranching.

It might be possible to develop both paths so people can pick what kind of rancher / farmer play style they want. For people who want to actively farm and ranch, add more chores around the farm. For people who want the casual log in and reap the benefits, maybe have NPC hired hands be an option (as suggested previously) but make them (1) expensive enough to really cut into profits and (2) less effective than doing the chores yourself (also cutting into profits) and (3) incapable of handling exotic livestock properly so that is an active farmer/rancher only thing.

I realize that expanding both paths will be more dev work, so it would be better if more ranchers/farmers opined (I have not done anything with that system yet).

[Rias]

To clarify, option 1 just means that the less time you spend doing the chores, the less production and profit you're going to get. So I feel like allowing the hiring of NPCs to do work for you (which I'm against for various reasons stated previously) at the cost of ultimately lower production and profit is just a more complicated way of arriving at the same destination.

[Irylia]

I'm looking at evenly distributing animals among shelters instead of simply filling up one before assigning animals to the next - hopefully that will help.

I think this will help a ton, honestly. At least if it's currently working how I think it is (which you seem to be confirming).

These are in the interest of this being a game, which requires some deviations from reality in order to be playable and balanced.

I totally get this and have been keeping it in mind. My issue is that, also in the interest of being a game, this doesn't seem very fun and actually causes a small amount of stress as I try to keep up with maintenance. This is why I've made so many varying suggestions to try and alleviate the tediousness without also negating the desired result.

A concern with farming and ranching that I've mentioned before is that while everyone else needs to be logged in and actively utilizing their skillls to get results - that is to say, as soon as they stop actively using the skill, they stop receiving further benefit from it - farmers and ranchers typically pop in once a day, do their chores all at once, and then log out or go about other business while their crops and animals passively grow/produce for the rest of the day.

I'm still not seeing eye-to-eye on this. I understand that there is offline progression with farming and ranching, however, you still have to login frequently to make sure that progress actually happens whereas players with other chosen character types don't have to worry about logging in daily to ensure progress isn't lost. They can employ a looser regimen (or stricter if they enjoy grinding skills and xp), and not suffer potential wasted effort.

For example: In order to successfully grow plants in COGG, you have to spend several days (at least) of consecutive logins to see any progress. Missing even one day will see your plants wither from lack of water or get overgrown by weeds - at which point your progress will be anywhere from slightly delayed to potentially having to start over completely. For ranching now it's very similar only rather than being able to login once and ensure your animals are healthy and happy, you have to login multiple times a day to keep up that same level of maintenance.

To be clear - I don't mind activities requiring more time or there being more steps. What I mind most is having to login several times a day for significant periods of time just to make sure things are working properly when other game activities don't have you on a timer and allow players to choose when they want to engage with the game.

I feel like there's a disconnect in how we perceive the effort put into characters and the value of active vs passive progress - and that's fine - it's just different points of view. Yes farms allow for passive progress, but characters who choose to farm often don't have the skill points to employ more "active" forms of play or may choose to put their remaining points into other crafting skills which can just be triggered with minimal attention given in case RP occurs. Regardless, passive progress is not a bad thing. It gives players options. And it's not as though there's passive bucket-fill along with passive riln-generators. Players still have to stay logged in if they want to grow their character so that the bucket has time to not only fill, but then empty too.

Granted, you have the benefit of being able to see more than I can and maybe people really do just login, do their chores, and logout. If they do, that's their choice and their playstyle, but that hasn't been my experience. In-fact, I only really started doing that very recently due to real life issues keeping me away from my computer more. Trying to get re-settled into my character has been difficult with the recent changes. And really, the very act of choosing a farm-based character pretty much ensures a daily check-in (at least if the player wants to be successful in any way), whereas many of the combat-based characters I've seen login far less frequently.

Essentially, I don't have a solution for keeping people logged in if that's the issue. People have priorities and lives and playstyles and there isn't much that can be done to make someone stay logged in if they don't want to do that. However, if the main goal to achieve balance is still about riln, there's a few other ways to achieve this and still make poop less of a hassle:
1) As you mentioned, lower the sell-price of certain farm-produced items. This might be necessary anyway when cooking eventually makes an appearance unless the price of food is going to be higher than more permanent items like clothes and weapons.
2) Increase base rent rates.
3) Further limit the size of farms (though I think the current limits based on skill are pretty good)
4) Make rent expansions much more expensive than a base-level farm so that those with the most space (and probably the biggest riln-makers) have to pay more for that status. Space is at a premium anyway near Shadgard, it would make sense that for a single person to rent more land, they should have to pay far more per expansion.
5) Lower the sell-price of unprocessed wool. (similar to food ingredients - the pricing for wool->thread->cloth->finished product seems way off. I think I've mentioned this before in the tailoring thread.)
6) Introduce vaccinations and dewormers necessary for livestock which physickers or alchemists can make.

Other steps you could add if you're worried about time logged in that can be done in one sitting or on the player's timeline:

Wool
1) Skirt wool (trim out matted/damaged/unusable areas)
2) Clean wool (soak in a tub, swish/swirl to remove debris - scrub, rinse, repeat)
3) Card wool (comb it out)
4) Roving (trimming the wool into strips before spinning into yarn/thread)
Steps 1-3 or 1-4 could be required before wool is able to be sold at the market and each could take multiple steps/roundtime. Step 4 could apply to weavers or husbanders.

Milk already has a butter-making process, but that could be given more steps to complete or otherwise drawn out. As more food items get introduced, steps can be added for making other dairy products, though that might be reserved for cooking. Milking itself already takes a significant time investment (provided the animal has enough milk to draw out).

Animal Care - would require new recipes or tools
1) Hoof trimming (all species). This could be a once a week thing maybe and have stages of progression like wool growth.
2) Brushing/grooming (for cows and horses). This could be morale-related or like poop - they won't produce if too dirty.
3) Tooth floating (all species - trimming teeth that have uneven wearing). This could also be a once a week thing.
4) Shoeing (horses). This would be as needed. Not required, but maybe could add some benefit and need replacement over time like armor repairs.
5) Deworming/vaccinating. Whatever schedule you like or maybe it could be a chance effect related to certain activities.

Perhaps the higher the relevant skill the quicker the chores will be or the longer the effects will last; someone with 100 animal husbandry can probably handle their daily chores quickly enough with the small farm size, someone with 400 might be busy for a long while if they have a proportionally sized farm.

This^^^^^^^. Taking farm size and skill into consideration would be awesome. I have a pretty large farm right now, but I'm not using all of the space and it still takes me a good chunk of time to keep things going. I can't even imagine a certain Boss' farm-time requirement just to keep things functional, but that's his choice haha. Allowing higher skilled characters to benefit by being more efficient with their chores would be great.

Sorry for any redundancies. People respond much more quickly than I do.

[Irylia]

Oh, I also fall in the "I'm torn" category on the 2 options presented. I don't mind having more things to do or spending more time or steps to do them, but I do want to be able to get them done at my pace without worrying about production or that I'm somehow "missing out". If my animals go poop and I can't login for a few hours - knowing that that's not going to mess things up for the whole day even though I'm still being attentive and logging in when I can would be very helpful. This could mean logging in once or logging in a few times daily, but as long as things are attended to at least once a day (at whatever time of day someone is able), I feel that should be enough. And if we need to come up with more ideas of things to do to make that possible and still keep things fair and balanced as far as time commitment and riln then I'm open to helping however I can with ideas.

[Irylia]

Maybe a quick solution is to make the poop gradual like milk is. So it doesn't get super bad all at once and you can stay on top of it more if you happen to check in on the game at times when a "dump" hasn't happened yet.

[Rias]

Cleaning shelters is now an auto-repeating action. Enjoy!

[Irylia]

This is incredible - so much more efficient and user-friendly. Thank you very much!