On side by side and a proposed shift

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Prism
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:44 pm
Location: SHADGARD, BABEH

On side by side and a proposed shift

Post by Prism »

So, I randomly asked this question last night, and it evoked some interesting responses. Given that, I wanted to ask the same question here. Pardon the rambling haphazard nature of the post. I'm writing this quickly because I want to get it out there, so my logic likely is kind of poor in some places. I'll do my best, though.

How would all of you feel if warriors lost access to side by side, and the ability became exclusively available to non-warriors?

The following logic provoked this thought:

Side by side as it stands currently is a little crazy. When warriors with the ability are in the same room as one another, they can act in sequence. It ends up looking something like this.

Cris, Roen, Baako, and Maya are in a room together.

Cris attacks a liberi garbage-hurler.

Roen Follows up with an attack of his own, or assists Cris in making his attack.

Baako follows up with an attack of his own, or assists Cris with making his attack

Maya follows up with an attack of her own, or assists Cris with making his attack.

And that's only when -Cris- makes an attack. All of the others assisting or attacking on their own are automatic actions that require no input, but drain energy as normal attacks otherwise would. If they attack-- they attack, of course, and can deal damage/kill something. If they assist-- they offer rerolls to the primary attacker. This refreshes every 8 seconds, so-- feasably, 8 seconds later, the same series of events could happen again in a different order, with, say, Roen or Baako making the initial attack and triggering the rest instead of Cris.

Warriors already have a lot of combat capability in their respective toolkits, regardless of their class. They have access to warrior-exclusive abilities that give them a pretty distinct edge over non-warrior counterparts in any given combat situation. (Staggering, knockdown, bonus attacks) On top of that, they're given the capability to lift their combat-centric stats higher than their non-warrior counterparts.

Given the fact that they have such an expansive combat toolkit, I think the addition of side-by-side in their arsenal makes them almost. Well. Crazy good. Which is the point, of course. But there's also been some conversation in regard to how we could balance the playing field for non-warriors whilst allowing warriors to feel like they are still the dominant force in combat because they're warriors.

If we took side-by-side from warriors, and allowed only non-warriors to use it, it would give non-warriors an edge when they group up, which I think is neat-- and is a nice way of giving non-warriors the ability to feel like they can make an impact, even at times when a warrior isn't, or won't be available.

A group of 4 warriors fighting a group of 4 non-warriors still has the advantage in this situation. They don't have side-bby-side going for them anymore, but they still have their expansive arsenal of combat moves and a higher skill ceiling going for them. But now, instead of being petrified and nearly hopeless in this situation, the power of numbers in that group of non-warriors all of a sudden makes them more competitive. They're giving each other rerolls that they normally wouldn't have access to-- they're throwing out more attacks then they would normally have the capability to throw out. But it doesn't stretch credulity. Not in my opinion, at least-- the power of the masses is strong.

Anyway, that's all i've got. I'd appreciate ya'll throwing feedback forward on this one. It's an interesting thought, and i'm interested in any thoughts anyone has on it, posetive or negative. As long as it's constructive!

Thanks and have a beautiful day!
"The sky, above the clouds; A rainbow that fate has devoured
I gave up Hope
But I'm not going to be lost tomorrow; Even if it is hell
I'm gonna' crawl. "
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Maina
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Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:32 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: On side by side and a proposed shift

Post by Maina »

I like the direction this idea is going, but I would tweak it in one of two ways. Or maybe both ways.

1. Make side-by-side something non-warriors get to support warriors specifically. Like how side-by-side triggers off other people who have the ability, instead make it trigger off warriors attacking or using their abilities or something like that. SbS is potent enough that non-warriors having it and still having it trigger off people with SbS will mean non-warriors probably don't need warriors at all. It's just that good. If it, instead, triggers off warriors doing their thing, there is still a benefit to having a warrior around, but non-warriors have more value.

2. This is my preference: remove or rework SbS but give non-warriors class-specific abilities that work similarly. Like tactical dodge, have SbS or a SbS-like ability that functions differently depending on which class uses it. Maybe Bards can automatically follow-up with a unique Word or Warlocks have their Familiar follow up attacks with its own body to distract and temporarily blind. You could even take it further and rework it for warriors, but each guild handles it differently. Maybe one guild shield-bashes as a followup and another gets a free flank.
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Xandrea
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Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:34 am

Re: On side by side and a proposed shift

Post by Xandrea »

SBS I think is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. When you have other characters with it in the party you do a lot of opportunistic damage. Which seems to be the basis I've observed with it. Attacks of opportunity. This honestly seems like a basic ability on paper. I don't know about taking it away from the Warrior's kit but, basic attacks with most tactics has additional effects already for warriors.

We non-warriors don't have those stances but, I do see giving non-warriors an alternative version of SBS. Bards already have Combat Choreography for instance. Even if it is less effective. This has a number of little ideas it gives me. A non-warrior version would feel like Pack Tactics. No defensive push down and lower chance of happening. There may be some speculation that giving regular SBS to non-warriors would make dedicated warriors less important but, I don't believe this will ever be true. While a bard can use words to stagger in place of a warrior. Nobody defends like a Guardian. Duelists and Marauders are powerhouses of attrition. Dreads and Berserkers do 'the' most damage per hit in the open. (I'm skipping Nightblades. Rerolls for days.)

Bards and Warlocks can already act as substitutes for certain things. Arcanists can even boost our defense higher than the 400 limit but, these aren't as potent as bringing a warrior. So creating a lesser SBS to me is 'us' supporting eachother and the 'warrior'. SO instead of taking it away from them entirely. I think it would be immense to allow us to have a version of SBS. For example sake I'm going to call it MOB TACTICS. (Like an angry mob.) For 'us' it gives those extra attacks. With a big difference. If we're grouped with a warrior Mob Tactics will instead upgrade to Pack Tactics. If we activate on the warrior or the warrior activates off of 'us'. Then there is no penalty. It acts as SBS regularly.

This would give non-warriors something useful to have when grouped up. For a Warrior it puts them into a position of leadership. Since through the ability. They're acting as a coordinator to make our ability more effective. Which would make an even greater incentive to bring along a warrior even with our new bonus.

More opinions please!
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