Gaining Experience

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nobody
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by nobody »

Regarding combat, the current combat system design is definitely more rewarding to "group up" rather than "group down." I've mostly played non-combatants and found I can solo low-skill combat areas fairly well. I've gone along with more skilled combatants a number of times and found that it works pretty well up to about 200-ish skill points of a gap. If I'm going along to attack mobs whose defense rolls are 300 or more higher than my offense rolls it is less productive for me to participate in offense, and experience and riln-wise I might be better off elsewhere. The combat system does also let you imbalance your offense and defense, and I've found having significantly better defense than offense is a good fix for playing a combat support character to group with higher skill combatants. At least, that has been my experience as a mostly non-combatant.

As for experience for combat below the skill range, I think incorporating steeply reduced (but non-zero) experience gains for fighting under skilled opponents would benefit the risk averse, which every character who doesn't know they are undying could very reasonably be. My only concern would be over utilization of low skill areas, which I think will be not so much of an issue after the world is two-faction sized.

Regarding crafting, the crafting system has lagged behind the combat system in development and that is probably much of the issue. When crafting is more developed, I believe design goals include:

- Low-skill crafters producing below-average goods which are good for experience but which are not good for riln production, with a more limited (lower profitability?) subset of recipes that can be produced at average quality at 25 skill. Some characters would currently be quite content with lower quality gear, but that may change as the quality mechanics (bonuses and penalpenalties) are fleshed out. When this bit is re-implemented, it might also be the ideal place to build in the skill-based experience decay (though be aware this will incentivize crafters to focus on a more limited recipe subset, and the ideal to avoid that might be balancing crafting for riln recipes and crafting for experience recipes).

- Market flood mechanics that prevent optimal profitability of all crafters just grinding out the same limited product set. Trying to balance how much the market should be able to handle is difficult, and worthy of another post and doubtless several statistical analyses.

- Crafting of above average goods (only +1/fine is currently possible, but +2/superior and +3/exquisite are planned to be attainable) based on IC active time (like crafting currently is) and OOC downtime (like the study system). Ideally this will reduce the viability of flooding the market with +2 and +3 quality goods, which should help them retain higher values in the market for frequently desired goods (much like what has occurred with handcarts), and encouraging characters to reach out directly to skilled crafters for higher quality niche goods.

I have to add the caveat that this my understanding, and may thus be incomplete or inaccurate, but the tldr is that crafting is probably more profitable now than it may be later, but it will likely always be a good avenue for lower-risk experience grinding.
Firerose
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Firerose »

Redfox wrote, in the first post to this thread:
"... it also poses a problem since not every player gets combat at low levels, and if they can't gain experience in tarueka just because their level is high even when their combat low, what are they supposed to do?"

This happened to me. My char is level 50, but her combat skills suck, which is to say her dodge is a good deal higher than melee. I was trying to fight in an area and getting no xp from it, which I knew about, but also no skill gains in melee, which I did not know about. I feel there needs to be a balance here. Some things were explained to me--that high dodge hurts me because of some things I honestly don't understand. Armor went up, which was helpful. I'm still not sure how to handle this situation, other than to ask higher-level--and skill--fighters to drag me around. But I need armor use to go up... so now what?

Now, as to the groups...
Maybe there could be a sort of exp for leading a group into a combat zone. Some kind of reward the leader gets. Nothing outlandish or imbalanced--nothing to leave the followers feeling left out--but at least some xp for their time and effort keeping people safe.

In general, I think either we need more high-level areas for those with melee in the 600-700 range, or for Valeria and Redleaf to give them xp for now, *until* higher-level areas are put in. If they're fighting in the highest level areas, and not getting any xp, that's a problem. They might be relegated to tasks they hate just to get exp. Or maybe they like those things, too, and it's a chance for them to do other things. But it's still imbalanced, in my opinion, because if combat is what they love, they should be able to go in there with 700 in whatever combat skill, and at least get *something* for their efforts.
Note: I am *not* suggesting high-level players should be allowed to solo Tarueka, Ravenwood, etc, etc. Before anyone suggests I am, let me be clear: it would only be in group situations, in my idea, and perhaps not as much xp as they would get soloing areas that match their skill level, but more as a "Hey, thanks for helping out other players, and for your time."
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Rias
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Rias »

The combat challenge rating between a character and a mob is simply the best of the PC's Ranged or Melee vs the best of the mob's Ranged or Melee. Level and defense skills don't factor into the equation at all. I've just done a test to double-check: At level 91 with 700 in Shield, Dodge, and Armor skills, but 0 Melee and Ranged skill, I defeat an infested vagrant in Tarueka and get 20% experience in my bucket since my primary combat skill and the vagrant's primary combat skill are equal. If you're not getting experience from the mobs you're defeating, you're also not going to get practice from fighting them, so you likely need to move up to something that has more Melee or Ranged skill. You can use the CONSIDER command to get a general idea of the combat challenge rating the game applies to that mob for you. If the messaging is saying it's too easy, you'll have to find something that has a Melee or Ranged skill closer to your own.

Adding more high-combat-skill zones is something that of course does need to be done. It's on the docket!

As far as fighters always getting at least some experience (or practice) even for things far beneath their skill - It's been shown time and time again that there will always be a not-insignifcant number of MUD players that will gravitate toward the easiest and most risk-free (and automatable) means of progression possible. If we gave even just 1% bucket for it, I am confident that the lower combat zones would find themselves occupied by characters far above their skill range, and that would not only feel cheap, but also negatively impact the people with appropriate skill levels that actually need to fight in those areas for practice and experience gain. The people of skill ranges the zones are intended for would have trouble finding things to fight because the high-skill characters are wiping mobs out as soon as they spawn, and the appropriate-skill characters will also have to deal with increased dangers from potential swarming as more PCs in an area means more spawns.
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Firerose
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Firerose »

I didn't know about the consider command. Thanks! Will check that out.

The idea is, only allow higher-skilled players to gain xp in low-level areas when helping newbies or those with lower combat skills, not when they're on their own. So a check. If they're not grouped, no exp, period. If they are ... I'm not quite sure how you could even handle this one, a way to set it so that two or three high-skilled chars can't go sweep through an area, because nobody wants that, I know... maybe one high-level char with low-level chars in x area, two in x area. But there *has8 to be at least one lower-level char in the group in those areas, or no combat xp.
I'm not a coder, not much of one anyway, so I'm not sure how difficult this would be. I think it'd be possible, but I don't know for sure.
Bloodyknight
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Bloodyknight »

I'm VERY happy to see this post gaining traction again with how passionate I am about this issue!

The point I would like to reinforce is that in high-risk areas like Redleaf or Valeria, a character should still gain experience even if they decide to max out my melee/range. While I might still gain XP from colossus/hellions, the capabilities to enter inner-city Valeria aren't always available and players aren't always willing/present. It takes a great deal of effort to reach 700 in a combat skill so it should be rewarding to make this journey instead of a disappointment to learn that XP is no longer being granted in your favourite reasonably-skilled areas (as you can still very easily die to Vanguards/Liberi). All of us seem to agree that a high level player gaining experience in low level areas is a bad idea. A 700 melee/range person has no reason to go to Tarueka to train, even if they're bringing low level people.

The dissatisfying scenarios I want to avoid for combat-focused people like myself are:
1. A melee-focused character is forced into using ranged (and vice-versa) simply for the sake of gaining XP in these areas, even while grouped.
2. A combat-oriented person is forced into using skilling to compensate for the lack of XP gained in these commonly grouped areas. (Ex: filling bucket with skills, fighting til bucket drops, repeat)
3. A combat-oriented person is forced into reducing their melee/range to lower levels so they can continue gaining XP in the aforementioned common high-risk areas.

This could be done in any number of ways. I loved Firerose's suggestion that a highly skilled combatant is rewarded for grouping with players, however I think if a level 700 combat player wants to go kill Vanguards in Redleaf by themselves, they should get at least something from it. I know Fjelbiests are now an option, but they have an extreme risk factor and a very low reward, to where this is not an ideal place to bring a group, let alone lesser-experienced players. I'm thrilled new areas are being planned but popular areas like Redleaf/Valeria should still be relevant to max-level players to some degree due to the risk involved especially while the new areas are being developed.

In which case, I have the following suggestions that might help with this:
1. A high-skilled character gets 1% instead of 0% for a small skill window of 50-100 skill points. (EX: if the 0% xp cutoff for the creature is at melee level 630. It'll now be a 1% cutoff at 630 and a 0% cutoff at 670).
2. A high-skilled character is granted this "skill window" for gaining experience if they are with a person who is gaining experience in that area. This creates more incentive for the skilled character to lead groups to high-risk areas like Redleaf/Valeria, without imposing the risk of skilled characters swarming areas like Tarueka/Dusklamp.

Welcome any and all feedback and of course better suggestions!
Gorth
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Gorth »

We're experiencing here what I like to call 'high level lack-of-option fatigue,' where we make a character with an image, get the character to the skill goals required for that image or that we think are required, and then find that now we have very little to do. The lack of options after reaching raw numbered skill goals is mainly do to a lack of content. Factions are in the works, societies are next, but there's still so much to do before the game is at a state where we have all of the options available to us to make our own RP beyond what we have now. I've hit this wall, and I know several others have.
It isn't the same for everyone, but it's something to keep in mind.

I get people pissed at me every single time I tell them to be patient, but I think the lack of 600+ combat zones is what the issue is, here. Adding in more areas for high level warriors won't solve every issue, but if you want to go to a low level area with low level PCs on your high level PC, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to be gaining from something that you aren't having to do any challenging work against. It's the same thing, in my oppinion. You're gaining experience for one or two shotting mobs as you're gaining for entering commands on crafting.

If it really is an issue that you're not gaining XP while doing this..I dont' know, go fill your bucket first? DO a delivery without Reflection therapy, that takes a long time to drain.
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Talyn
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Talyn »

Personally, it's better for lower-skilled characters to join higher skilled in the higher combat zones. It's dangerous sure but the reward is better on all fronts. I have to agree with it being lack-of-option fatigue but things are in the works as was already stated.
I'm Not Accepting Surrenders At This Time. I Want You To Know Failure, Utter Defeat, And That It Is I Who Delivers It Crashing Down Upon You.
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Gorth
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Gorth »

DO a delivery without Reflection therapy
I meant to talk more about this. People use Reflection Therapy all the time. I use it, too, but lately I've stopped. My main character is level 63 and I really don't think I need it, anymore. I've hit a pretty good spread of goals, and any more leveling would just be to hit my actual numerical max goals, which I don't feel pressed to do, because I don't want to hit this cap and find out I no longer enjoy my character. Lay off the reflection, guys! I know this sucks for Physickers, but if you're at a point where you're not holding XP draining for long enough, make it drain slower.
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Firerose
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Firerose »

The trouble here is that these suggestions don't actually offer a solution. At this point, right now, nothing does. And maybe it's what you said it is--fatigue--but there's nothing wrong with being frustrated with not gaining xp in any situation, especially if you've spent all those points to bother to train it only to realize that you don't benefit from it. Yet. Until other areas get put in. But there's already so much that the game needs, who knows when that'll be. And that's not me talking down about it. It's just a fact. A lot to do and only so much time, and only one person to do the coding makes things difficult.

And, think of the one high-skill person in a grow of lowbies as a guard only, not as a combatant with actual weapons. This would give a chance to those who need the practice to actually, you know, get some hits. At least that's how I picture it.

I tend to agree with Nobody :)
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Talyn
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Talyn »

I mean a group of low levels can take on a high-level zone. There was a time when a group of six low levels walked into Valeria and they were able to hold their own no problem. I'm at the peak of 700 so I know the feeling of wanting more stuff but at the same time, low levels tend to not want to join those high-end adventurers which will get them way more skill gain and bucket gain. I mean play the game as you want but just pointing out that is a solution. If anything, I think tasks would be a better route for combat xp for 700. That way you could go into lower skilled zones for there to be a mob your level, it only shows up if you wander into it's room or has a percent chance to show up per room you walk in.
I'm Not Accepting Surrenders At This Time. I Want You To Know Failure, Utter Defeat, And That It Is I Who Delivers It Crashing Down Upon You.
-NotRias
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