Gaining Experience

Have a new general feature to suggest, or think one should be tweaked? Share your ideas here.
redfox
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Gaining Experience

Post by redfox »

I've been running into some issues lately when it comes to playing with friends of mine that are different/higher levels than I am since the methods to gain experience here are weird in some ways, such as how a high level warrior will no longer gain any experience hunting in one of the most difficult areas of the game just because they hit a certain level, but they can go back to shadgard and carve a branch to gain experience no matter what.

This makes it difficult to form a party with anybody if the level differences are too big since someone will either not get any experience since the area is too low level, or the other will be in an area that is far too difficult for them to participate in. Not only that, but it also poses a problem since not every player gets combat at low levels, and if they can't gain experience in tarueka just because their level is high even when their combat low, what are they supposed to do?

I think there should be a set minimum to how much experience killing something can give you, perhaps based on the level of the enemy. This way hunting in lower level areas is simply -less- rewarding instead of not rewarding at all, and nobody is forced to carve sticks.
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Maina
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Maina »

It is based on your skills compared to the NPC, not level.

I still gain experience in some of the lowest level areas of the game at level ~25 or so because I never increased my combat skills beyond 100.

Even with skills this low, you can contribute to groups in more difficult zones. Easier the more people there are so it's less likely you get one-shot.

I do think XP gain needs majorly rebalanced, but not from combat. XP gain via combat is easy compared to some skills.
redfox
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by redfox »

I will admit I was wrong about experience being based on level, that is enlightening.

However, I was hoping for more people to offer their opinions since not everyone keeps their skills at 100 and not everyone wants to hunt in large groups. Neither of those are appropriate answers to the issue I brought up.

I personally find non-combat skills to be much easier, seeing as nearly all of them have almost no risk involved and only include material and a set of commands. These also grant both experience and practice no matter what your current activity and skill level are, which is the complete opposite of how combat works and is horribly inconsistent.

Should you be made to craft items that match your skill level if you want to progress in profession skills and earn xp?
Or should combat offer at least a minimal amount of experience (only experience, not practice) just for the sake of being in combat so that higher skilled people can still gain some experience with their lower skilled friends?
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Lexx416
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Lexx416 »

I'm not really a fan of awarding experience to higher level players for killing in low-tiered combat zones. The biggest problem I can foresee with that is something I've seen in other games, which is: many (not all) of the experienced players will end up grinding the lowest skill (or, more likely, the most efficient amount of experience for the time spent killing) mobs instead of what challenges them.

While Cogg's grouping mechanics do potentially help to alleviate that some, I think it's a generally problematic thing we should be looking to avoid.
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redfox
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by redfox »

That is exactly what I mean though, how is that possible problem different from a skilled woodworker grinding figurines, dowels, or pegs for experience?

If this is a problem for combat, why isn't it a problem for crafting?

If it works for crafting, why can't it work for combat?
Bloodyknight
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Bloodyknight »

I think these are all valid points to make.

In other games, experience isn't rewarded to those who decide sit by themselves in a farm, vault or their inn room for several hours to carve wood while maximizing their experience potential. But personally, I would prefer these methods to still grant some experience while also allowing highly skilled combat people to gain a small amount of experience as well. What is suggested here is not making it so that combat focused people can maximize their XP potential, but that they are earning at least some experience (0.1% - 1%).

This means that in the same time they would earn experience from Vanguards in Redleaf for 7%-13% per kill, compared to going to Tarueka and having to kill 20+ (possibly more) creatures just to earn the same level of experience as they would elsewhere. They are also earning significantly less riln and aren't training any of their skills, so it really doesn't make much sense for them to train in these areas unless they have someone with them who can benefit more. I don't think we'd see an increase in high leveled players hunting in Tarueka with a fix like this. But this would help in the likely common example when a person reaches a high melee skill, and they are no longer filling their experience bucket from places like Valeria or Redleaf when they want to participate in fighting in these places with a group.

Highly skilled players should be able to gain experience like everyone else under these circumstances, but I am sure there is a balance that can be achieved here.
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Rias
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Rias »

There are good points here. I do think it could be worth considering having the super simple crafts grant less (but not zero) experience the more one's skill in that craft. Avoid situations like the "carve wooden pegs to level 100" thing. Which would still be possible, but would become increasingly less efficient. I also like the idea of combat granting at least a tiny bit of experience even if one is way over it so they can still group up with their lower-skilled buddies and feel like they're getting something out of it. Not that grouping up and helping your buddies isn't nice on its own merits and feel-goods (who doesn't love sweeping/tackling things so the lower-skill party members can then land hits?).

This time around, I've tried not to over-worry about people gaming they system to find those super simple risk-free ways of grinding. If someone -really - wants to forage pine cones or kill ravens or carve pegs or forge nails the entire way from level 0 to level 100, they could. If that's really an experience someone feels like they could actually enjoy, then okay. I don't get it, but okay. On the other hand, I do prefer making silly things like that become less and less efficient, and potentially incorporate other systems and ideas in order to encourage people to actually raise their skills and fight other creatures and craft other crafts and do other things and have actual experiences in the game. I just don't want to spend -too- much time tweaking the balance of that kind of stuff.

In the end, someone's always going to find that next goofy method to risk-free minimum-effort their way up the ladder of progress, and I don't feel it's worth the energy to keep chasing that too zealously and spending time plugging holes when I could be working on other things that will be fun for me and for players. That said, please do report cases that seem too easy or risk-free to the point of seeming abusable.

But yes. Encouraging people to build their skills and craft more advanced or complex things is good, and giving people a little something even if they're underhunting as they tag along with their lower-skill buddies would be nice, too. Please continue to discuss and post suggestions.
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Talyn
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Talyn »

So I've been thinking about this, and like Rias said it has valid points on both sides. I don't think combat should give experience just because you're helping in lower level situation, and I do really don't think crafting should give you experience all the time as well. Personally, I think to balance it out it should have diminishing returns. On top of that, with crafting I think that crafting should be done based off skill level, so early on crafting skills if you're at 300 or even 400 skill in said crafting gives you 0 crafting. It might need to overhaul the crafting which isn't what I want to have done but it was an idea. The said should be said about stealth, defense skills such as dodge and shield, well a few others. As someone said you could have a lower skill such as say a high level warrior goes with range if they're not good with it, as long as the skill is around the range of the mob you're good. Crafting is great but I feel that too many people hide to do their craft to often and make way more riln then those who go adventuring to kill mobs and such. The only plus side is combat skills continue to go up even if your bucket is full. Personally, when it comes to combat experience the best way is to have a high level warrior drag you to their hunting zone rather then the other way around. It's to promote stronger people to show harder locations
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Rias
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Rias »

Talyn wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:08 pm Personally, when it comes to combat experience the best way is to have a high level warrior drag you to their hunting zone rather then the other way around. It's to promote stronger people to show harder locations
You know, there's definitely that. As the higher-skill guy it's a blast setting up stuff for your lower-skill buddies to wail on and get a ton more experience from. And as the lower-skill character, it's a blast to have your more skilled buddy set things up for you that you'd normally be unable to face. So while all the other discussion in this thread is still very much valid and worth considering and continuing, there's already one solution to the specific problem of out-skilling your buddies in combat: Put your greater prowess to work by helping your lower-skill friends face tougher stuff they'd normally avoid, allowing them to get extra experience from fighting the tougher enemies while you still get your experience as normal for fighting the stuff you'd be fighting for experience anyway. Some of my favorite memories in other MUDs were when higher-level people would take me out to fight stuff normally beyond my capabilities!
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Ephemeralis
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Re: Gaining Experience

Post by Ephemeralis »

It might be a good thing to have more basic items scaled back like this just for the niche of allowing entry-level crafters some way to readily market their goods to other players. A big crafter may not want to waste the physical time creating dozens of dowels or bandages if they get no experience for it, which allows space for newer players to create profitable goods in that regard.

COGG in particular does suffer from the whole "if I can do this myself why should I pay someone else to" problem as far as game design goes.
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