Sunset Points from retired characters

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Rias
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Sunset Points from retired characters

Post by Rias »

Sunset Points are now a thing! See the wiki article or type HELP SUNSET in-game for details. The basic concept is to help encourage players to focus on a few characters rather than maintain a massive army of active/shelved alts. Hopefully giving people a reason to permanently give up old characters they don't have much interest in anymore will help. It can also help people let go of old characters who have had their time and are ready to move on to a new one, thanks to the increased rate of progress helping get through that starting grind for the new characters allowed by the retiring of the old ones.

The numbers are sure to be tweaked over time. Right now it's at a rate where essentially 50% of a retired characters' experience will be preserved via this sort of transfer-over-time to other characters instead. It's not one-to-one because I don't want to see silliness like people creating characters just to experience up via extremely easy means for the sole purpose of retiring them and using their sunset points on another character.

This has been a fairly frequently-requested feature over the years (even in The Other Game), so I'm hoping this makes some people happy! As always, feedback is appreciated.
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Irylia
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Re: Sunset Points from retired characters

Post by Irylia »

Thanks for implementing this. I have a few suggestions that might make it a little more user-friendly.

1) Put something about retiring/sunsetting in the login screen area to people know it's an option.
2) Have some indicator that sunset is on/off in the "exp" command so people have an easy reminder anytime they check their bucket and don't accidentally forget it's on or misuse points.
3) Possibly change the color of retired characters or hide them so people don't have constant/brightly visible reminders of characters they won't ever play again. Or maybe separate them with some kind of spacer so they're not clumped with active and shelved characters.
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Re: Sunset Points from retired characters

Post by nobody »

I finally had some time to work through the math on this and wanted to post a little about that. I started with a two variable model (I used the sunset decrease amount and the efficiency rate, but you could also use the sunset decrease amount and the bucket drip increase amount and it would be the same model). TLDR: (1) The sunset decrease amount should be equal to or greater than the bucket drip increase amount +15 (it's currently equal) and (2) the efficiency rate should be 50% or lower (it's currently 50%). Great job Rias on nailing the math on your first go round.

(1): I found this quirk of the sunset decrease amount when considering what would happen if the efficiency rate stayed the same (50%) and the bucket drip increase amount were reduced to 2 (the same as the current benefit of reflection therapy). Suppose someone worked up to level 100 and then retired the character. They would have 1,732,500 sunset points saved up. Since each drip would yield 17 exp instead of 15*, the new character would reach level 100 after 101,912 drips instead of the normal 115,500 drips. During that time, their sunset amount would decrease by 407,648, or less than 25%. In other words, if you got one character to level 100 and retired them, that set up would allow you to use the sunset exp gains to help get 4 characters to level 100. Any time the sunset decrease amount is less than the bucket drip increase amount +15, the number of characters needed to deplete the sunset points is greater than 1, regardless of the efficiency ratio. This is arguably not a problem, it just feels weird to me because it seems to encourage creating more characters rather than fewer.

(2): The efficiency rate I mentioned some in the voice chat just after this feature came out. At an efficiency rate above 50%, getting a character to level 100, retiring them, and then using the sunset bonus to get a second character to level 100 and then retiring them would result in having a larger number of sunset points after retiring the second than after retiring the first. With a 50% efficiency rate, the amount of sunset points after retiring the second is the same as after the first, and with an efficiency rate below 50%, the number of sunset points after retiring the second character is lower than after retiring the first. I personally like the 50% ratio because it means you only need to get to level 100 the hard way once, and after that it's always easier (if you are choosing to retire your level 100 character, certainly not everyone will - it'd be tough to choose to lose your accumulated wealth and other stuff even if the leveling up will be faster). I also like that it helps to mitigate the issue Rias mentioned in the most recent chat - if you'd left cogg and wanted to come back as a new character just so you'd be certain to be unrecognized, you'd at least have less of a horrible low-level grind to get through. Not equivalent certainly, but a very nice thought.

(*): For all my work I've assumed all characters always get a full drip of 15 exp, which I know isn't always true for me. A partial drip happens when you have less than 15 exp in your bucket when it drips - it empties out completely but instead of getting 15 you get whatever was in your bucket. I don't think this will be a considerable source of error unless someone deliberately tries (or accidentally manages) to be weirdly inefficient with gathering exp. With partial drips, it is possible the sunset bucket would drain faster than it otherwise would (I haven't tested, so I'm not certain), and the outcome there is that the character will need to make up any exp they missed in earlier drips without the benefit of the sunset bonus (I think of this as a non-issue).

And lastly, some additional notes on balance. I'm not overly concerned with the rate of exp increase afforded by using a sunset bonus even as high as it currently is (though the current is what I would call a reasonable upper bound). This is for three reasons: first, the physicker's reflection therapy benefit has no marginal cost (once the physicker has put in the time to learn the ability, it costs them 30 seconds of RT to use it and costs the recipient no time but probably some riln, which for anyone above level 10 or 15 is probably not significant), while to get a sunset bonus, one must have spent the time to earn the exp once and make the difficult decision (still difficult in my opinion anyway) to retire the character before you can get it back again as a benefit. The two things both offer potentially faster leveling, but they are quite different in terms of real cost. The second reason I don't believe the sunset bonus is unbalancing is because leveling twice as fast as another character is already very possible. All one need do is log in and play twice as much as someone else, or alternatively be halfway to level cap with your character when someone else creates theirs. I don't view either of those things as unbalancing. If they were considered unbalancing, the remedy I might recommend would be regularly scheduled character wipes (no thank you) or daily exp caps (this would definitely discourage excessive grinding for exp, but some might still grind for riln or just logout so it might also not result in more people hanging out to RP). The third reason is that the current game design makes it not difficult to get exp - one could reach level 100 by farming or mining or metalworking your way there, just waiting for an RP-based life event to turn the character's path to violence, joining the warriors guild and advancing rather quickly in combat ability. It'd be a slow-burn story, but I've certainly heard worse.

All that arithmetic and rambling done, I love the feature and think it's a great addition.
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Re: Sunset Points from retired characters

Post by Acarin »

Great analysis but I do strongly disagree with your conclusions.
1) If I can crossover experience between my characters, why can't I crossover other things like wealth, items, etc? It's the same thing. There is supposed to be a dividing line between characters and this crosses them over. I should not benefit from another character on my current character.
2) If someone using sunset points plays for 16 hours one day, in order to keep up, I need to play for 32 hours that day. I will therefore have to slow down the rotation of the earth just to keep up.
3) physikers give 2 extra experience per pulse which is not super significant. This is DOUBLING growth rate. If this was 2 also, fine. It's not. It's massively imbalancing and allows people to do something new (with new character) but blow through it without putting in the time. Retire a strictly exploration character when you're done and become the strongest warrior twice as fast!

This makes no sense to me. It feels very contrary to long standing policy.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Grichenko
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Re: Sunset Points from retired characters

Post by Grichenko »

Acarin wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:16 am 1) If I can crossover experience between my characters, why can't I crossover other things like wealth, items, etc? It's the same thing.
It isn't the same thing, at all, though. Once a character is retired they are essentially gone, forever. Sunset points act as a way for the time invested in a retired character to serve some purpose. Over time (because the Sunset system doesn't instantly grant experience), and at a cost (because the retired character is gone forever).

Acarin wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:16 am 2) If someone using sunset points plays for 16 hours one day, in order to keep up, I need to play for 32 hours that day. I will therefore have to slow down the rotation of the earth just to keep up.
And if Superman were real he would have an unfair advantage over us all in terms of reaction time. But I'm not sure what your point is here, other than that the power of imagination is fun?

Acarin wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:16 am 3) physikers give 2 extra experience per pulse which is not super significant. This is DOUBLING growth rate. If this was 2 also, fine. It's not. It's massively imbalancing and allows people to do something new (with new character) but blow through it without putting in the time. Retire a strictly exploration character when you're done and become the strongest warrior twice as fast!
You stated that no one is "putting in the time", which is weird, because they did.

If someone levels 5 characters to level 10, trying to get a sense of what they want to do, then they retire 4 of them and use Sunset points on their remaining character... They put in time.

If someone levels 2 characters to level 50, retires them both, then starts a new character and uses Sunset points on said new character... They put in time.

Maybe not in a way that makes sense to you, or in the same way that you did/would, but they did put in time. They're not being magically granted something that they haven't had to work for.

Acarin wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:16 am This makes no sense to me. It feels very contrary to long standing policy.
Does it truly not make sense to you, though? Most of your points seem like concerns surrounding perceived unfairness or abuse...but then you couch said concerns in wholly imagined hypothetical situations that don't seem actually plausible. Which makes all of the saber-rattling feel sort of insincere.
Acarin
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Re: Sunset Points from retired characters

Post by Acarin »

Grichenko wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:29 am It isn't the same thing, at all, though. Once a character is retired they are essentially gone, forever. Sunset points act as a way for the time invested in a retired character to serve some purpose. Over time (because the Sunset system doesn't instantly grant experience), and at a cost (because the retired character is gone forever).
And once I transfer riln or an item from one character to another that riln is gone for the first character. So yes, it is the same thing exactly. It's crossing stuff between characters. Experience is rate limiting and the most important thing in game so its actually a lot worse.
Grichenko wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:29 am And if Superman were real he would have an unfair advantage over us all in terms of reaction time. But I'm not sure what your point is here, other than that the power of imagination is fun?
Read up. This was in reference to Nobody stating that it is not imbalancing because a new player can just play twice as long each day to catch up. They can't. There are limited hours in the day. So superman aside, it's imbalancing.
Grichenko wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:29 am You stated that no one is "putting in the time", which is weird, because they did.

If someone levels 5 characters to level 10, trying to get a sense of what they want to do, then they retire 4 of them and use Sunset points on their remaining character... They put in time.

If someone levels 2 characters to level 50, retires them both, then starts a new character and uses Sunset points on said new character... They put in time.

Maybe not in a way that makes sense to you, or in the same way that you did/would, but they did put in time. They're not being magically granted something that they haven't had to work for.
They did not put in time to the character that they are working on so I'm really not sure where your confusion lies. If they can't decide what they want to do and keep making new characters, that should not be rewarded. Characters should not transfer to other characters.
Grichenko wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:29 am Does it truly not make sense to you, though? Most of your points seem like concerns surrounding perceived unfairness or abuse...but then you couch said concerns in wholly imagined hypothetical situations that don't seem actually plausible. Which makes all of the saber-rattling feel sort of insincere.
Yes, I think I was very clear that promoting character crossover makes no sense to me when there are clear policies against it. I really don't care whether you feel this comes across as sincere or not but it is. I think this is ridiculous and game breaking in certain ways. It is a strong motivator for me to no longer play. I assure you that it is very sincere. And yes, I do think that it is design permitted abuse. I havent posed any hypothetical situations here. The reality is that this just allows old players to maintain a permanent significant leveling advantage and is extremely off-putting to people that prefer not to make multiple characters (that they get bored with and retire) or who haven't been playing for 5 years.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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Re: Sunset Points from retired characters

Post by Rias »

I can understand the concern over perceived similarities to policy-breaking actions, but I can think of a few major differences that make the situations quite different. Let's say I have two alts - Phineas and Ferb - and I have Phineas drop a 500k banknote, then switch to my alt Ferb and pick the banknote up.

- The character Phineas has not been lost and can still be played. I just chose how much I wanted to transfer to my other alt and suffered no further loss. Sunsetting, on the other hand, requires the loss of an entire character - all or nothing.
- Ferb has gotten 100% of that 500k riln dropped by Phineas. Sunset points, on the other hand, are only a partial percentage of the lost character's experience.
- Ferb received that money all at once and can put all of it to immediate use. He could go straight to the stables and buy a nice warhorse that same day. Sunset points, on the other hand, are an over-time boost to the rate of accrual.

I'm sorry to hear this bothers you so much. It's a concept I really liked when it was suggested for The Other Game a long time ago, and I'm really excited to finally have it implemented here. It's something I've always wished I could do in other MUDs I've played. Considering my initial intent with the current rates and the analysis of our resident numbers expert, I think I'm pretty happy with how it's currently set up. I'm happy to hear further feedback and proposed tweaks, but I don't feel it's necessary to severely downtweak it.
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Acarin
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Re: Sunset Points from retired characters

Post by Acarin »

Our resident number expert's analysis does not demonstrate that it is a reasonable system, only that it is on the borderline of where it should be based on his analysis and the criterion he is using. This says nothing about whether it is a fair or reasonable system. I suppose I won't keep going here since you've made up your mind though.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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