The Treasure System

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Acarin
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The Treasure System

Post by Acarin »

Just had a few thoughts around the treasure system and thought I would post them here.

Right now, I don't necessarily feel super motivated to always be hunting my skill level... I do because it's fun and can be a challenge or at least give the occasional risk, but it is more efficient from both an experience and treasure standpoint to just hunt laborers or marauders than something challenging.

So experience issues aside, creating motivation to hunt tougher stuff through the treasure system would go a long way towards feeling rewarded by progress and also promoting the hunting of more challenging mobs. Right now, the only difference between a cultist box and a laborer box seems to be the difficulty of the lock.

I'll start by saying that I dont think lootable riln rewards from mobs should be adjusted much due to encumbrance limitations... a lot more riln would just make people leave an area faster to unload.

Some easy things that could be implemented:
1) Tiering of lockboxes based on difficulty of mob (not lock difficulty) -
Increased gem quality and better types, higher chance of dyes and potentially skew towards better colors, occasional metal blooms (maybe even very very rare drops of the more difficult to obtain metals), more limited use arcane items
2) armor and equipment drops based on what the mob is using... weapons and armor/clothing - even average, or fine.... or very very very rarely superior +
3) Very rare unique (ish) items that give some small mechanical benefit or have some scripts/functionality. Higher chance as lockbox tier or level of looted mob gets higher. This could include other unique sorcery foci, special chalks that increase arcana duration but have way less uses, lore items that can be studied, jewelry that gives a small bonus to a skill (10 or less - only one can be worn at a time), quivering bowstring equivalents of various melee weapon types (maybe getting more durable with harder mobs), "rare" items specific to the character or knowledge base of a particular mob (i.e. glyph robes or sacrificial knives with a minor bonus of some type for cultists), etc

Just trying to think of ways to keep hunting exciting and have it feel more rewarding at upper levels... there's the challenge component of it, yes... but with greater challenge, I would also anticipate greater reward. That's not the case currently though. Things like this would also stimulate the economy a bit more...
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Dennis
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Re: The Treasure System

Post by Dennis »

For what it's worth, I think that adding in loot tiers so that higher level players feel accomplished for their work is very important. To that end there's probably something to say about over-rewarding lower level players as well in that treasure at low tiers is the same as treasure at high tiers.

I think having higher quality loot on higher skill mobs would be really important to that end. I don't necessarily mean to include things that upset the overall riln per hour scale but rather to focus on qualitative ways that you can rope combat-centric characters into the economy system.

Combat salvaging - Almost every enemy I've run into has used mostly stone tools and crude and crappy gear, though I'm not sure how this holds up at higher tier. I think incentivizing use of high skill areas by giving mobs average gear would be appropriate. I know there's probably some thought taken into consideration for breaking the player-driven economy by adding a lot of NPC loot to the market, Let's say for example that an enemy at skill range 700, the so-called upper limit of capacity is equipped with average to fine, rarely superior quality equipment. You don't want to make player crafted gear become worthless, so I would probably label loot-drop average+ equipment with a special tag like 'impure', which would significantly reduced the selling price and you can remove incentive to use this armor by giving it reduced maximum durability. It still contributes to the overall volume of goods since these impure goods would still be A) repairable, B) sellable to the market when at maximum durability, but people wouldn't want to use them for very long as player crafted gear would always be better.

Treasure box rarity - it would be better than the 1 pool system if we had 4+ possible treasure pools that are associated with different % odds of receiving different loot from boxes. I think the gacha/lootbox system we have is pretty simplistic and as a result, like Acarin says, there isn't much incentive or feeling of accomplishment for popping over a high skill object over a low skill object. Some ways you can do this is to set up different odds on different tiers of of lockboxes. See: Blizzard lootboxes, Gacha banner pulling, etc. You can also create different loot pools for mobs if you wanted to highlight certain area specific qualities. This would probably need a rework of the treasurebox system but I personally think it would address a lot of Acarin's issues with the treasure system.

Riln drop per mob - I also don't want to see enemies at high skill dropping fat wads of cash with every kill, as it would pressure the economy even moreso than it already is. The riln sinks in the game are imbalanced and characters do not all have the same things to expend their money on - for example, in animal husbandry I have countless riln sinks to set me to nothing, but for a combat player your main sinks are healing and armor and weapons. Generally speaking all of these are low cost barriers compared to the 25 thousand per animal cost buying a cow might have. I'd say an upper limiter of 200 but with higher skill creatures having more tolerance for having closer to the upper limiter would be nice. I'd also suggest nerfing low skill enemy riln drops down slightly by 10-20%. You might even consider putting in a modifier that automatically reduces the riln drop according to how much more skilled the killer's attacks are in comparison to the defending npc to dissuade high-hunting-low.

I find that the largest issue presented is that high skill players are being incetivized to hunt in low-skill areas, resulting in overcompetition at the low skill range and removing risk for high skill players, who are only losing exp efficiency. Higher level hunting areas exist for challenge, but aren't presenting rewards comparable to lower level hunting areas.
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Rias
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Re: The Treasure System

Post by Rias »

I've thought a lot about lowering riln amounts when underhunting to discourage that kind of thing.

I like the idea of having some added loot tiers increasing as mobs get tougher, giving possibilities for extra/better/cooler items, and not more riln. Although one of said tier rewards might be the chance for a box with an extraordinary amount of riln in it, just because that can be fun too on occasion.

Some good ideas in here already, happy to hear any more people might have for expanded treasure/loot based on difficulty.

Are there any thoughts on a possible second rare currency item that's used for certain (supplemental) trades and purchases that riln won't work for? I think I like the concept because riln is going to be one of those things that's going to just keep building more and more and likely lose value over time as the game floods with more of it. Having a second much more limited currency might be good. It could be a rarer loot find. I imagine there are some elite treasure-seekers and merchants and whatnot in the Lost Lands that are already content with their piles of riln, but these fancy new relic items that people have been finding - that's something they're interested in, and maybe these various NPCs are storing them up to- ... well, maybe I won't say. But being valued by certain merchants and others with stocks of exceptional items would in turn give these items their own value.

I definitely don't want to get into the territory of, say, Guild Wars 2, where I had to scroll several screen lengths to see all my different currency types and never really had any idea what any of them did or why I was collecting them. That was to the point where I just didn't even want to look at what they were for because it was overwhelming to even glance at.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
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Acarin
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Re: The Treasure System

Post by Acarin »

Two problems I could see in lowering riln rewards for underhunting... 1) grouping with someone to help them potentially means less riln rewards for the group and 2) it feels artificial when someone is talking about how much a critter pays and you have to tell them they won't be paying well as they get stronger... all for it for exp/practice gains but not loot. The same loot should be given regardless of skill. Better to motivate people to hunt at level with better drops as they progress. Why would I hunt laborers and keep getting crude bloodstone when I can hunt <new critter> and get a ruby every 20 chests along with some arcane drops every once in a while... or that massive riln chest.

I am not sure how onboard I am with a second currency. I guess it depends on how its implemented... if the currency is far more rare than riln, you run the risk of players treating as the only currency they will sell for since they have enough riln. You also have to create a market of items people want that can only be bought with that currency. The currency either eventually becomes riln or no one really uses it... Rather than a new currency, why not just create a riln sink of extraordinarily rare items at warhorse prices? I am not against a new currency but I just don't see it solving the riln thing... having stuff to buy with riln would achieve the same effect, I would think. Of course, it's different if there is a lore reason for the new currency.
Last edited by Acarin on Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Dennis
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Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am

Re: The Treasure System

Post by Dennis »

Actually, you bring up a point! And I think I'm inspired to declare that alternate currency is probably one of the best way to manage economy in a multiplayer online world like CLOK where currency is only money.

To take it to an extreme, I think that a separate 'treasure-box' currency that replaces riln-in-boxes would be a fantastic alternative entirely for people to gain from box-opening, and it would function to reduce riln-bloat in the world-economy. See: your example of Guild Wars 2, or other popular MMOs. An extreme is Path of Exile where there is no fiat currency and every currency is actually a usable item. Granted we aren't getting to that extent, but it is simple economics as to why alternate currencies are used for things like treasure drops, dungeon crawls, and events instead of the standard money. From that aspect making it an entirely own-managed currency that cannot be directly exchanged via market for riln would be nice.

I can also see elite merchants, traders, treasure hunters, etc exchanging their high quality goods for quantities of this alternate currency, treating it as if it was its own currency as both engaging and exciting for all parties as there is a strong incentive to either exchange riln for alternative currency OR go box-hunting to get this alternative currency.

That isn't to say that putting in the resource as a rare secondary option creates a collectible item which incentivizes hoarding of that item and gives a feeling of reward when acquired, but it doesn't function to protect your fiat currency.

if you aren't of the mind to entirely replace riln as box-loot, you can also opt to reduce riln and give a proportionate amount of the alternate currency, so you aren't handing out moneybags of it to high players.

To return to being topical, I'm still of the mind that overall simply reducing basic riln rewards and scaling it to tiers of enemies would allow for a more satisfying progression. If you look at dungeons and dragons 5e's Treasure Hoard system you can kind of see where this idea is more fleshed out. Giving enemy tiers by which a treasure hoard of a suitable value is assigned, where the entire hoard's total value is within that margin. So rather than where we're currently having a one-pool system where riln ranges from 50 to 500, having pools where the total riln value ranges from 1-50, 25- 75, 100- 200, 400-1000, and so on. Note that I said value - so I'm assuming that there's a value assigned to loot items like knobs, etc, which subtract from that hoard value. So a low value chest would never have a chance to fill with something like dye.

To be honest, at a certain point of wealth that mostly applies to veteran players, the human psyche doesn't really differentiate the satisfaction of getting a thousand from getting 200.

A one currency system will always suffer from bloat and inflation, and sinks only go so far. It also doesn't address economic inequality and overall player satisfaction as it caters to the eldest or those who put the most time in. While bank notes help to manage huge quantities I don't want to see, like, the meat-economy in Kingdom of Loathing scales of money being needed to throw around to achieve any substantial trade!
Last edited by Dennis on Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: The Treasure System

Post by Acarin »

How would those that choose not to engage in combat acquire it though? I wouldn't want craftsman and farmers to be at a disadvantage in purchasing from merchants because they're not scavenging chests or hunting.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Dennis
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am

Re: The Treasure System

Post by Dennis »

Pure noncombatants, such as physickers who choose to avoid combat for various reasons, would be able to barter for the alternate currency with either the riln they earn or services they offer. It kind of goes back to how crafters have an economic advantage over warriors/etc because they control/single source healing, tools, weapons, and armor. With a treasure-box currency in place and specific merchant system for those currencies, combat focused individuals would have control over a commodity that isn't riln and be able to exchange for it back in fair trade. Alternate currency also gives some freedom in design by which you can create interesting and powerful artifacts/items/etc and not disturb the economy because you're using an alternative currency to exchange for it. It also somewhat mitigates the scrooge mcduck factor of someone trying to hoard a billion riln to outbid everyone in a festival auction. Yeah, people are going to hoard it but an inherently more scarce alternative currency is never going to reach the same levels of inflation.
Last edited by Dennis on Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."
Acarin
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: The Treasure System

Post by Acarin »

Dennis wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:07 pm Pure noncombatants, such as physickers who choose to avoid combat for various reasons, would be able to barter for the alternate currency with either the riln they earn or services they offer. It kind of goes back to how crafters have an economic advantage over warriors/etc because they control/single source tools, weapons, and armor. With a treasure-box currency in place and specific merchant system for those currencies, combat focused individuals would have control over a commodity that isn't riln and be able to exchange for it back in fair trade.
Except this creates the problem of crafters requiring the alternate currency for their services and products which is what you really want to avoid... because then riln really becomes pointless...
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Dennis
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am

Re: The Treasure System

Post by Dennis »

That's not necessarily true - You don't see standard copper/silver/gold/platinum losing their value just because (for example) blood tokens are the current event currency in MMOs like GW2. What you end up seeing is people changing gold and platinum for the items being purchased at the blood token merchants. Either because the items are limited in quantity, or because the inability to be in control of the currency acquisition results in more or less price scalping. How the dust settles is something hard to predict though.

I also think that this can be easily mitigated by adding a low value task to the town's pool that would grant this alternate currency for completing a generic town task. That would de-incentivize "only alternate currency" trading for standard currency items as it isn't solely accessible through treasure boxes. The volume wouldn't be comparable, but the creep would be negligible as the token would be removed from the economy theoretically much more often than it is input. E.G. trading 10 thousand alt. coin for 1 interesting merchant item when each task only outputs a limited quantity of like 25 alt. coin. It retains low volume this way.

Also, riln is still a requirement for basically everything other than the specific currency merchants. the core currency is still riln, much like how copper/silver/gold/platinum is the core currency and what everyone uses as a central exchange token.
Last edited by Dennis on Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: The Treasure System

Post by Acarin »

First, in order for that to work, we would need more valuable items that could be purchased for riln. If the value of riln is minimal, no one trades back. Also, having a general task that can be completed for the new currency is contrary to the idea that it is a relatively rare and more valuable currency. This also gets rid of the exclusivity to the treasure/loot system and would require that it be more common there.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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