The Coming Conflict (Factions)

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shoryuujo
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by shoryuujo »

As I'm new, I'm still trying to grasp the identity of Cogg's gameplay. I've certainly felt a fair bit of anti-farmer sentiment, even if Acarin here is half joking. Note of a further move to develop CVC (which is cool, and neat), I'm just trying to figure out if I should consider now or soon ditching the farm, looking for the PVP abilities and stuff, if they exist well for Primalists to non-druidry folk. I just felt like farming would be a way that I'd more happily engage with exp, but I have my own doubts as well. That said, I'm not anti-combat.

It could be interesting, factions. But Is it an opt-in, opt-out for life?
stratcat
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by stratcat »

First of all: this sounds sensible, well thought-out, and downright amazing. I really hope it will all prove great in reality.

While I understand not being allowed to play both sides with alts is always going to be controversial, I really, really hope we go that route. I feel it will bolster immersion significantly. I'm very fine with having a limited view of the world and everything that happens in it. Hell, I prefer it. I feel like that adds a lot of depth to RP. A sense of mystery, if you will.

If (by any chance) it's going to be possible to become a TRAITOR and switch sides, that might be problematic for very alt-y folks. Though I feel like it's probably COGG's design in the first place to discourage intense alt-swapping, so maybe it's fine. And hey, maybe it's just okay that someone with 5 Shadgard-aligned chars doesn't get to switch over to the new totally-not-evil place. Can't have everything. What are your thoughts there, Rias?

I think it could be potentially helpful and interesting if switching sides was allowed (but, of course, not easy!). I could see this totally-not-evil side suffering a shortage of crafters and trying to convince artisan chars from Shadgard to join. Find Saciri in the wilderness, and then... offer her an extra generous joining package. And cookies. Who doesn't like cookies?

I'm all for somehow splitting up ESP and for cross-faction communications being hard. Again - not knowing everything that's going on adds to immersion and depth. I always felt a little 'eh' about being able to message the entire game IC easily. Where's the fun in that? If you're going to cohort with the enemy, you better be smart, arrange meeting spots, and so on and so forth. Do a little extra work.

For markets, I like the smuggling. I'd love to see a little risk associated with it, or (at some point in the far, far future) maybe even some PCs being able to chase down smugglers and anyone using their services. I feel like no one should feel it is a perfectly safe thing to do, even with the added cost.

I'm actually leaning toward kill-on-sight guards for most PCs. I'm really wary of Bob from Totally Not Evil Faction coming over to Shadgard and... staying at the Inn for a whole day, chatting away by the bar! Such a likeable fellow! I feel that if the guards are not kill-on-sight, there would have to be something else to discourage being too friendly and breaking immersion. Maybe if you stay too long, you'll eventually be charged with some entirely made-up felony?
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Rias
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by Rias »

nobody wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:02 pm I have so many questions.

- The new faction will have rules and laws, their own set of ideals, and Shadgard will have its, though perhaps made a little more rough around the edges by contrast (I'd expect additional anti-nether RP for example), but how civil will the conflict be? Will there be rules of engagement, so to speak?
Shadgard was always supposed to be a sort of rougher frontier town. They definitely are intolerant of sorcery and nether, and they tend to banish people showing any signs of affliction like nether-corruption, infestation, the canim condition, and so on. Their justice is often of the frontier variety. Being survivors in the Lost Lands, they figure it has to be. I like to think plenty of people on Shadgard are decent folk, but it's also a small survivor outpost in what is essentially a very harsh post-apocalyptic world overrun with all manner of horrors, both human and otherwise. A beacon of tolerance, kindness, and slow methodical justice, they cannot afford to be. Not to say that some Shadgardians don't fight to improve in these areas (there -is- that little mine-turned-church run by those people who champion compassion and all that jazz).

As far as civility and rules of engagement: It's a pretty nasty place out there and not much exists in the way of oversight or anything. That said, I don't want this to be a gankfest - which is why I'm trying to provide specific opportunities where CvC can be focused on, like the capturing of resource sites. Give the CvCers specific things to do and places to do them. I think both sides will agree that engaging in such activities is just business. But randomly mugging or murdering people on the roads just because they're not on your team, that would likely end up in bounties posted and other consequences. Because free-for-all random no-interaction CvC gankfest is absolutely not what I'm going for here.
- Since no third/neutral town is planned, are we saying goodbye to Porto D'esilio, or will it be the home of the new faction, or will it be re-introduced as a sad ruin of a town (either like New Emberlight, more of an outpost, or like Terueka, overrun and no longer habitable)? To be clear, I'm not against sad ruins, they're delightful.
Access to Porto has already been cut off (the ship is no longer ferrying passengers between Porto and New Emberlight). It will remain as the capitol of the Republic of Exiles for lore purposes, and be accessible at various times for events and such. I can't promise it will never be destroyed or something, but I don't see any need to do so now in order to implement factions.
- I love that NPC factions will also be in the mix, would it be correct to assume that no PCs will be able to join those other factions?
Probably not, just because that adds to staff workload real fast. It's already going to be a handful managing two player factions - getting players involved in even more factions actively involved in ongoing events would be an increasingly heavy lift. Some loose tolerances might be achieved, and while I love this kind of thing myself as a player, from the GM side of the curtain, having players want to join every antagonistic faction you put out there does start to get overwhelming.
- Presently the best items on the market tend to not stick around for very long, in part because they're not being mass produced (I believe that is desirable). For example, one cannot simply buy a crossbow. How will items like that, which rarely touch the markets factor into smuggling?
Probably not much difference from how it is now? The smuggling system should ensure goods will remain available to both sides despite the faction split. Hmmm, we might need some way to communicate requests cross-faction, though.
- If you go the neutral market route, that would prove a valuable tool for traitors/sympathizers. Will extensive selling to neutral markets become an offense (IE, penalized faction standing)?
I don't think I'm going to go with the neutral market, but if I do, I don't think I'd want to penalize anyone for using it.
- You might also consider a 'black market' type of opportunity for crafters, where they can sell wares that they know will go to the other side.
Not a bad idea, though I think the smuggling thing will pretty much cover this.
- I love the ESP zones. It will make things complicated for rescuing failed missions in enemy territory, making those attunements more valuable for sure. Would you consider extending attunements so that the gray channel is limited depending on area but the faction attuned channels are available everywhere? I don't know if I'd even want that, but it would deal with the issues noted above just as well.
Hrrrrm. That's something to think about, though I'd have to come up with a way to make it work with the ESP lore I have established for the basic idea of regional ESP zoning.
- Are the factions intended to be static (like guild and class) or will they be able to change over time? If it is intended to be static, will that become a part of character creation?
While I could see someone potentially switching factions with a *lot* of both time and effort, it is intended to be something you start out choosing. Maybe have a little mini starter "quest" where you decide which town you choose to throw your lot in with in order to survive in the Lost Lands. Or I could just be lazy and make it a character creation option. Might be better for a phase 1 implementation.
- How will the Shadgard/Not Shadgard faction dynamics interact with societies?
The proposed Harbingers society would certainly be more appropriate for Notshadgard. Members of the anti-nethrim society would struggle in Notshadgard since Notshadgard makes casual use of sorcery and nethrim. Tse Gaiyan would have similar issues since Notshadgard accepts infested residents as long as they've shown they have it under control. I think those would be RP scenarios rather than automated ones. I wouldn't expect the problematic combinations mentioned above to last very long before their factions kicked them out, though. Hmmmm. Something to continue considering.

==========
shoryuujo wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:03 pm I've certainly felt a fair bit of anti-farmer sentiment, even if Acarin here is half joking.
Have you felt this from anyone other than Acarin? And I believe he is indeed joking - farming isn't of interest to him clearly, but I've not seen him push in any way to get farming removed or nerfed or anything like that. I do occasionally make exasperated comments about how there are so many people who are farmers (I've occasionally threatened to rename the game COGG: The Farming Simulator), but I promise you I'm not against them or the farming system. I did code and implement it in the first place, after all. And I'm excited to do even more with it!
I'm just trying to figure out if I should consider now or soon ditching the farm
If you're happy farming now, keep farming. As I mentioned in a previous post, there's nothing forcing farmers to get personally involved in the faction conflict. And there's a reason the farms are tucked away in secluded areas behind their towns: so they're not being constantly messed with by antagonists. You can continue farming away even after all this faction stuff is implemented just as you are now. Anything this faction stuff affects should be new implementations (rare resources, etc.), not existing ones.
It could be interesting, factions. But Is it an opt-in, opt-out for life?
There wouldn't be any way to opt out of choosing a faction, if that's what you're asking. But as mentioned, being a part of a faction does not require going out and fighting the other faction. If you want the peaceful farm life, stick around your farm and don't stray too far from town and you'll be fine. Which is already the case, really, since there are already plenty of nasty aggressive murderous hostile creatures and NPCs out of there waiting for wanderers to waylay.
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by Rias »

stratcat wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:28 pmI really hope it will all prove great in reality.
You and me both. And I'll happily overhaul it as many times as I need in order to get it into a good place. Goodness knows I had to do so with the combat system.
If (by any chance) it's going to be possible to become a TRAITOR and switch sides, that might be problematic for very alt-y folks. Though I feel like it's probably COGG's design in the first place to discourage intense alt-swapping, so maybe it's fine. And hey, maybe it's just okay that someone with 5 Shadgard-aligned chars doesn't get to switch over to the new totally-not-evil place. Can't have everything. What are your thoughts there, Rias?
As you said, I'm already pretty hard on heavy alt-ers. We've got the shelving system and only 2 characters active at once. As I mentioned in my previous post, I could see someone potentially switching sides with a large amount of time and effort put into it. And I don't mean just some kind of reputation grind, I mean several months of believable motivation and RP going toward it. I'd not want to see it happen over multiple characters of any single player, though. And don't make a character with the pre-established plan of them eventually switching sides! It should be a special and -natural- thing that might possibly happen to one of your characters once, because of how events have played out during their actual (and significantly lengthy) playtime - not some pre-fabricated plan. I'd also definitely have an OOC conversation with the player before any of this kind of thing getting serious, and would make it clear to them that they'd have to shelve their other character if they're in the other faction. Again, I very much do not want people playing characters on both sides of the faction split.
For markets, I like the smuggling. I'd love to see a little risk associated with it, or (at some point in the far, far future) maybe even some PCs being able to chase down smugglers and anyone using their services. I feel like no one should feel it is a perfectly safe thing to do, even with the added cost.
Good ideas!
I'm actually leaning toward kill-on-sight guards for most PCs. I'm really wary of Bob from Totally Not Evil Faction coming over to Shadgard and... staying at the Inn for a whole day, chatting away by the bar! Such a likeable fellow! I feel that if the guards are not kill-on-sight, there would have to be something else to discourage being too friendly and breaking immersion. Maybe if you stay too long, you'll eventually be charged with some entirely made-up felony?
My idea was to just have the guards prevent passage. You can sidle up to the enemy town without being attacked on sight as long as you don't have the reputation to merit such treatment. But while the guards aren't going to just straight up kill you, they -are- going to prevent you from getting into town.
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stratcat
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by stratcat »

Rias wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:23 pm My idea was to just have the guards prevent passage. You can sidle up to the enemy town without being attacked on sight as long as you don't have the reputation to merit such treatment. But while the guards aren't going to just straight up kill you, they -are- going to prevent you from getting into town.
...I haven't thought of that. What does it say about me when to my mind, if you want folk stopped, you kill them?

Yeah, I've no qualms with that!
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by Navi »

To add to Nobody's post about the ESP Networks being extended further out for the factions, perhaps there could be permanent ESP Network repeaters located half way between the two factions that they war over. There could be occult masters in each town who understand a little more about the ESP network and can switch the colors of the artifact repeaters whenever they're controlled.
Each faction could have an open gray channel and a closed colored channel that works within their own region. Between these two regions could exist an open gray channel, with two ESP artifact Repeaters which could allow communication to this region’s ESP Network and their faction’s colored ESP Network. If one faction manages to control both of the repeaters, then it could allow their own colored network to reach into the opposing factions’ region. Characters would need to tune their pendants to the colored network by visiting each faction’s central ESP location.
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by Rias »

Get out of my to-do file, Navi. I had some potential ideas along very similar lines.
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Agelity
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by Agelity »

Navi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:54 pm To add to Nobody's post about the ESP Networks being extended further out for the factions, perhaps there could be permanent ESP Network repeaters located half way between the two factions that they war over. There could be occult masters in each town who understand a little more about the ESP network and can switch the colors of the artifact repeaters whenever they're controlled.
Each faction could have an open gray channel and a closed colored channel that works within their own region. Between these two regions could exist an open gray channel, with two ESP artifact Repeaters which could allow communication to this region’s ESP Network and their faction’s colored ESP Network. If one faction manages to control both of the repeaters, then it could allow their own colored network to reach into the opposing factions’ region. Characters would need to tune their pendants to the colored network by visiting each faction’s central ESP location.
I could see something like that working for some adventurers and scholars (espionage, occult manipulations, etc.). Gives an opportunity to not only scout physical locations, but also public chatter (similar to the eavesdrop effect except instead of being the next room over, it's an ESP network you've tapped into). No longer will one need a glaive in order to "hack" 8-)
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by Acarin »

shoryuujo wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:03 pm As I'm new, I'm still trying to grasp the identity of Cogg's gameplay. I've certainly felt a fair bit of anti-farmer sentiment, even if Acarin here is half joking. Note of a further move to develop CVC (which is cool, and neat), I'm just trying to figure out if I should consider now or soon ditching the farm, looking for the PVP abilities and stuff, if they exist well for Primalists to non-druidry folk. I just felt like farming would be a way that I'd more happily engage with exp, but I have my own doubts as well. That said, I'm not anti-combat.
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stratcat
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Re: The Coming Conflict (Factions)

Post by stratcat »

A couple more thoughts I had in bed!

Would it be expected that sorcerers and afflicted folks play Notshadgard, or would it be more the case that they are absolutely encouraged to play Shadgard, but then have to be a bit sneaky and smart about it? And probably expect more confrontation?

If banished from one faction, how does that affect a character's chances to switch over to the other? I'm mostly thinking about afflicted folk and sorcerers being banished from Shadgard.

Personally, I can't quite shake off this feeling that Shadgard is the closer place to being "good." Maybe that's something that carries over from THE OTHER GAME for me. If they're both meant to be grey, maybe it's a good idea to show us players just what flavor of not-good can be had in Shadgard? Reassure the more morally dubious PCs Shadgard might also be a place for them. A little RP plot when the other faction is released maybe? Shadgard officials conspiring with some unsavory, morally dubious group of extremists? A stomach-turning game of who does a better (or worse, really) job torturing some imprisoned infested? I'm sure there are options!
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