Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

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Acarin
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Acarin »

I have suggested skinning of player corpses for leatherworking. Looting them would probably be going to far though.

Again, handle it through your rp. If you want to try to make a case, do that. If you don't want to get killed, stop getting yourself into situations where you're going to be killed. Rp yourself out of it. Make a deal to find your corpse. I've been telling you over and over ICly my demands. You make your own choices. I'm a reasonable person and this isn't personal at all but your choices right now are dictating what happens.
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Irylia
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Irylia »

Navi wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:49 pm I'd be completely fine with it, if the stated mechanics were in place, but giving someone a go ahead card on this just because mechanics have been thought out, and not actually implemented, is screwed up.
I just wanna say I didn't give the behavior a go-ahead in my initial post, but I am now (not that I have any authority to do so aside from my personal thoughts on RP). I was just trying to give you information about what Rias' thoughts (even year-old as they are) were since he hadn't posted yet. But I don't consider what happened to be griefing or forced RP anyway. That's just my personal opinion, of course, just as it is yours that it is griefing/trolling.

From what I understand, Acarin did something in character, provided options in character, is pretty helpful out of character, and in my experience playing with him, he's never been out to ruin anyone's day. There's a natural flow to RP and his character is "shady" and gets up to "shady" things. If something set his character off and your character was attacked, it's not really unreasonable to think that the character might move the body for any number of IC reasons.

If your play experience was ruined from this, then obviously that's something to consider. But I don't feel like people should have to curb their RP to fit people's sensitivities as long as the RP is legitimate and not abusive. You can certainly make your preference known, and you have, and people may respect that, but at the end of the day these are still IC actions and all RP has IC consequences.

I've had several of my characters get their corpses dragged in "the other game" and always saw it as an opportunity, even if it could be bothersome at times. If you don't have time to figure it out that play session, that's fine. No one can steal the gear so there's really no issue with coming back to get it later. If it's too hard to find, there are IC ways to go about solving that problem - either with the help of others, or by RPing with the person who dragged the corpse to begin with.

If you don't want conflict, then maybe a survivalist, conflict-driven game isn't quite for you. I'm not trying to tell you not to play, by the way. I've very much enjoyed what little RP I've seen from your character. But Acarin is right. There's been a lot of discussion of factions and CvC and direction of the game as far as choosing a side and not "fence-sitting" and that ultimately means there will be many more instances and opportunities for conflict. If that's not something you feel comfortable getting involved in or suffering potential consequences of, a different character concept might work better - one less exposed to the dangerous wilds.

Anyway, I think it would be pretty difficult to support a game where every conflict-driven RP action potentially required permission from both parties or was potentially considered grief/trolling. If there was someone intentionally messing with another player in a meta or OOC way, then that's another matter and should be reported appropriately on a case by case basis. I personally don't think we need to stop characters from IC actions though when it comes to corpses just because the previously proposed mechanic isn't in yet. COGG is generally a fairly helpful community and I think we can find ways to work around this particular obstacle IC in the meantime. Ultimately, though, it's going to be Rias' call to make.
Navi
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Navi »

You're completely right. There's nothing stopping his character from moving my character's body. His character could come up with any number of reasons to justify moving it. He could have his character think, oh, you know, this corpse looks better under the light of the moon. Or. the river's light from the moon best reflects from this side of the river, compared to the otherside of the river. This body is too ugly to be leave next to this meadow of flowers. I will move it to a different place. The list can go on and on for this reasoning. However, my character could have been holding the most valuable diamond in the world, not just the lands, the world. They'd be like, that's such a pretty diamond! I want it! I can't have it, because, this dead corpse has such a death grip on it. Ah well, I guess I'll just do with setting up my corpse decorations around my cave of caveness. You know why they can't just take that diamond? Because the mechanics do not allow them to do so. Currently, players are allowed to drag other player's corpses to the crypts so they can be recovered. However, this also allows them to drag the corpses away from where they fell, and prevent a player from ever obtaining their gear. For instance, a player could just drag the corpse to their farm, which they don't allow anybody to visit. I'm not saying this was what was done, but by allowing this sort of behavior to occur while there is no mechanic to allow a player to retrieve their gear, it's pretty much the same thing, whether the corpse was left one league away, or 15. It's always going to be a fucked up thing to do, and the evidence of this is the fact that it is being done, even though there's no benefit for the player who does it, AT ALL.
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Rias
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Rias »

I've had the idea for a while to have corpses automatically returned to a crypt after a certain amount of time, presumably by any number of various NPCs. There are plenty of NPC explorers and warriors and adventurers and whatnot out there, so it shouldn't be difficult to explain a mechanic like that ICly. Might even be some opportunistic booger who's made a service out of it so he can charge Undying a little fee or something, we'll see. Whatever the case - a way of ensuring corpses eventually end up at a crypt for retrieval of possessions is a good idea. And probably preventing them from being dragged out of these specific crypt corpse retrieval rooms.

That said - I don't really see much weight in the defense of dragging someone's corpse where they're less likely to find it. The character already died. In CvC they've already been killed by their opponent, and I think that's enough. Dragging the corpse to make their life (death?) even more difficult seems like unnecessarily adding insult to injury. They were already bested and killed in combat - that should be enough. I already made it impossible to loot player character corpses as an anti-griefing measure, and I think having a general policy of "don't drag corpses away to make it more difficult for people to retrieve them" falls in line with that.

I get that some people might say that it's part of their rolepay to further mess with the corpse, because they know the person is Undying or they want to toss it into a crevice or move it off the road becaues they think it'll scare other travelers or use it in some unholy blood sacrifice or whatever. People can dream up virtually endless reasons to justify the action in-character that ultimately does little more than make it difficult for the other player to find their character's belongings and retrieve them. But, nah, come on. I feel like a line has to be drawn somewhere in order to prevent people from intentionally making another player's experience frustrating and difficult. They already died, lost any experience in their bucket, and took a hit to their sanity and morale (possibly somewhat IRL as well as IG). At that point if the intent isn't to sincerely help get the corpse back to a retrieval place for that person, just leave the corpse and move on. RP spitting on it or kicking dirt over it or whatever, but let's allow the person to get back to enjoying the game after their defeat.

There's no easy way to mechanically determine, much less prohibit, dragging corpses for ill instead of for good. I'm considering putting in some kind of policy reminder upon dragging a corpse that says something to the effect of "If you're not dragging the corpse in order to help this person retrieve their goods, just leave it alone. Corpse-dragging activities are logged."

I'd love to hear some other thoughts on this - specifically outside the two individuals directly involved in this incident, as they've already made their thoughts clear in the many posts of this thread.
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Lexx416
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Lexx416 »

Rias wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:33 pm There's no easy way to mechanically determine, much less prohibit, dragging corpses for ill instead of for good. I'm considering putting in some kind of policy reminder upon dragging a corpse that says something to the effect of "If you're not dragging the corpse in order to help this person retrieve their goods, just leave it alone. Corpse-dragging activities are logged."

I'd love to hear some other thoughts on this - specifically outside the two individuals directly involved in this incident, as they've already made their thoughts clear in the many posts of this thread.
I'm personally a fan of a policy in place against dragging corpses for purely antagonistic reasons. Largely because it doesn't generate meaningful conflict or cause a resolution. It seems more like a tool of grief. Given that almost every aspect of this game has a time investment involved, taking even 30 minutes out of someone's day for them to have to wander around to find a corpse sounds incredibly frustrating. I normally enjoy that there's a time investment involved in this game, it makes it feel real. It's more or less a direct action of Anti-Fun.

I also worry about conflict/grief escalation. In games that have CvC conflict (which I do enjoy), there's usually a problem with escalation. I pick your pocket. So you kill my horse. So I kill you. So you kill me and hide my corpse. And now the game has become one massive "hide the corpse" game, wherein people either stop using their Cool Gear for fear of their corpse being tucked away somewhere hard to reach, or they become hyper competitive on an OOC level so that they can avoid their corpses being dragged around the world.
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Bonehead
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Bonehead »

I can easily see being unable to drag corpses around as a unique "thing" related to being undying. Some magical "Force" prevents their corpse from being moved or something, I dunno.
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Irylia
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Irylia »

I'm good with that decision if that's where you want to land on this, though I am a little surprised given the implications of your previous comments and the impression that a mechanic would be in to help locate a body that had been dragged away for any reason - nefarious or otherwise. I still don't consider it going as far as griefing (at least in this particular instance where several options were provided to the character involved) and wouldn't much care personally if it happened to my character's corpse, but best to just avoid that temptation and possibility of abuse altogether, I suppose, as there's no real way to know someone's intent or how the victim will react OOCly. There's no point in potentially ruining someone's game experience so if this helps prevent that, then that seems alright. People can figure out other ways to RP it out.

I will say though again that I've had my corpse moved before for event-related purposes as well as by players in "the other game". One such time I was actually asked to remain dead and not depart and was in that state for almost an hour so people could try to find my corpse. I realize not everyone has or wants to use the time necessary to agree to such things and communication is important. It's a game, after all, and people do have lives they need to get back to. I think the main difference is that in this game when you die there isn't really an option to not depart and you don't spawn with your gear with you, so on the one hand the player doesn't have to wait for people to rescue them, but on the other hand they are inconvenienced by the temporary loss of their gear, sanity, morale, bucket and the retrieval process. This version of death opens up whole new RP opportunities, of course. And there is always the option to logout and finish corpse retrieval later. If the corpse does go back to the crypt after a certain amount of time, that seems like a good mechanic to put in place regardless of the unhelpful-dragging decision.

I also liked that in "the other game" people had a toggle of yes/no I want to participate in things that might have lasting impact on my character and/or event-related consequences. So if you wanted to add something like that here so this kind of thing could happen for those kinds of reasons, that might be a decent workaround as well. Not that I enjoy having my corpse moved around willy nilly, but I don't want RP actions to be limited if say... an NPC were to do this as part of an event. And I still feel like having someone from the opposing faction being able to corpse-drag does present opportunities for player cooperation in the recovery effort as long as they're not making it overly difficult or taking them somewhere people are unable to enter. Obviously not every time someone died, but if it was RP-appropriate - then I still don't see a problem with it. Just my personal opinion, of course.

But I can also see why it's unnecessary and why you would say no reason is RP-appropriate when it comes to affecting someone's ability to retrieve their gear. Adding the blurb you described when starting to drag a corpse would be an easy abuse stopper regardless.
Acarin
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Acarin »

Rias, since you have invited me to publicly bring out the drama, I will do so although I would have rather this been private. I do think that if you are trying to create a game where conflict is allowed, then not being able to drag a corpse is ridiculous. Like you said, there are infinite reasons it could be done. I did it for randsom for the same reason that I killed the individual IC and this player could have had it back in 10 minutes or gone numerous different routes if they were not just trying to max their character, take shortcuts, and otherwise whine about how the world does not cater to it/her/him. They just refuse to do it IC and instead complain here. Having the corpse come back after some period if they aren't able to find it sounds reasonable, but the fact is that someone can survive for a few hours without their gear and do fine. If they don't want to get into that situation then don't start it through multiple actions.

The fact is, they can buy a new cheap weapon and container if they can't find their gear. I think that this is even an issue is absurd. If this is going to turn into clok and we're going to have the same sort of situation where someone feels its alright to pitch a fit, insult people, and make no IC attempt to resolve the situation then please let me know now before I invest any more time. I'm seriously having complainer flashbacks from clok right now in the first situation that has come up and it does not bode well.

Like I said would be happy to explain the IC reason as I think this player is absolutely ridiculous and very meta.
You locked my character in a room. He would have been trapped if he was not a picker. He gave you a warning shot on the road. You posted his identity and accused him based on the "lithe" and "average" height descriptors when shadow cloak was up (ridiculous to begin with). He killed you for it and dragged your corpse away from the scene as he planned to blackmail you to remove his description/post (which you shouldn't have anyway as there seems to be an issue with helm not covering certain descriptors as it probably should). Again, it is also very meta that you assume a shadowy figure of average height is a particular person (this is like saying "I'd recognize that butt anywhere" to someone wearing baggy sweatpants). I went with it. I offered to help you recover your body. You could have taken it or found an alternative route to recover your body. We could have resolved it then. You refused and instead decided to post complaints here telling me I was griefing you. You then denied that you accused me of griefing you and later again accused me of the same in your next post. You then had another fit in your next bbs post. I, following my initial plan, told you to remove the post or else from hiding (IC). You ignored it. I gave you 3 more warnings to remove it which you ignored so then I killed you again and dragged off your body with the intent of trading its location for what I want a second time. You came immediately back and decided to script the area with my throwing knives that I left in another room. I gave you another warning and told you to remove the post. You told me to "go to undm." I then killed you a third time after stalking you for quite a while while you continued to hunt right where I had just killed you to apparently show your feelings about the situation and how tough you. I killed you another 2 times today because you just won't take a hint and run right back to script after every death. When I warn you or tell you to leave, you just keep scripting through. If you don't want to die don't keep running over to the guy that killed you over and over again. If you don't want your body dragged then don't start rp you don't intend to finish. You're just leaving corpses around at this point. I've never seen such incredibly poor rp in all my time playing games. I get it. You expressed your desire to grind through in a couple of days and you hit hiccups that you created. If you don't like it, play better. You've even thrown spears at me. I expect you think it's grieving if I kill you again for it?

If you want it resolved then resolve it. I tried but you clearly only have a desire to script hunt and complain.

You have no right to complain at all. Your IC actions have dictated what has happened. You either figure out how to resolve it or you accept the consequences. The same will probably continue because when you want to pretend like you're the toughest person out there and you can ignore threats and they don't matter, then you're going to run into problems. This isn't the game that you're used to playing. As Irylia and I have both told you, there will be more conflict. If you don't like it, then be a physiker or a craftsman or any of the numerous non-combat specializations. Do not expect to sit there and act tough and not have consequences. Rias, as Irylia said, has final say but if this is going to be clok again, then I'm gone.

If Kaiju or someone I knew was strong threatened me, I would take it seriously and not have an OOC tantrum equivalent on the boards or in game. It has happened in the past and my character was shaken during a previous event... I would certainly not meta the "I dont care if you kill me 1000 times because I'm making a point that you can't do anything so kill me over and over and I'll keep running back in, disdainfully, and pretend like the threat doesn't exist" thing.

I found your behavior last night and today to be extremely meta and outside of the character of the game. I am going to be blunt and say that it ruined my rp experience and I have found it all to be childish. I hope you put more thought into your actions moving forward because this could be very fun if you decide to actually play a character instead of treating the game as a giant mechanic to rush through (as you stated on the OOC channel) and sitting there pretending like threats don't exist while you script. If you give my character the equivalent of a middle finger though, you should expect that I'm going to play him in the way that I have been... you do you, just don't make OOC accusations after. I play this game for fun and love the community. I dont try to be the "psycho" that I was in the last game so if you have a problem with my character, there is a very good reason and you have earned that wrath. If you want to rp in character then let's do that, but please keep it in game. Im really sad that I even have to say any of this because it should be obvious. Like I said, no hard feeling out of game and I hope that we resolve this in an IC manner.

I want you to note that I tried to help you with mechanics on the OOC channel when you starting playing again and answered nightblade questions for you. Again, no hard feelings out of game unless you make them here.

You're free to play your character however you want but there are consequences to the things you do. I'm free to do the same. Don't make this personal, however, just because you don't like what happened. I think you're expecting this to be the other game where this type of behavior and drama is commonplace. It's not. Please don't bring that here. This has nothing to do with the way your body looks in the moonlight. It's a consequence of your rp. If you don't like it, then you have the power to change it. Rias, feel free to tell me I'm wrong here of you want but from my perspective, the factions/conflict thing is off to a very bad start.
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by nobody »

I have mixed feelings on the subject of moving corpses around. On the one hand, the person already suffered death and all the associated baggage. On the other hand, it's just access to stuff that is being lost with the corpse being moved. This is a big obsticle in early game play and mostly a non-issue in late game play, so long as the loss of access is temporary. Presently there isn't a system in place to guarantee that it's temporary, though I'd love to see an NPC service where a PC could go and drop riln and let them take a vial of blood, and then a task is spawned to find the corpse that anyone can take (for bounty riln but maybe not XP) and the task-takers get an occult dousing rod that allows them to find the corpse. I'm ok with corpses not being able to be moved with malevolent intent though, because presently there's no way to guarantee corpse retrival and Rias probably has more interesting things to code into the game than this.

This thread does inspire another question though: What recourse do people have against undying? If one becomes such a constant nuisance to civilization that a village of farmers would go out with farm tools as weapons and hunt the person down with no return to their livelihood until they've found them, what do they then do with them? Lock them up for the rest of their days, force feeding them so they don't die and find freedom and revenge?
Agelity
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Agelity »

I don't wish to comment on the ongoing issues as at this point I believe this may be better left to private discussions, but I can comment on my thoughts regarding corpse moving/retrieval.

I still believe it ought to be an allowable function, or handled within a realm where it's possible for those wishing to move corpses to more convenient locations (helpful people) or those who may wish to relocate a body lest they just leave a corpse out in the open. I do express concerns that this COULD turn into a matter of griefing, but I am curious if it is instead possible to have a method of "hiding" the body within a safe location nearby, perhaps with a timer to eventually be brought back to town if not recovered after x period of time. My only concerns are those instances in which someone doesn't retrieve their things initially and how to handle the possibility of multiple corpses, items on said corpses, etc. and whether they ought to remain out where they are, be brought back, or have those corpses disappear with items dropped (ie, if you die, wait for your items to make their way back to you before deciding to YOLO again).

I do agree that being on the receiving end of these things is frustrating enough and having those issues compounded with things like not being able to obtain your items again is all the worse, though I think I'd rather see some method of having the corpse brought back to a known "corpse retrieval area" (even if it's just some random spot nearby to town), and/or some method of generally giving you an idea on where that corpse may be (whether it's been moved to a corpse retrieval area or still out... somewhere). Probably doesn't need to be a huge cooldown to trigger that effect, but certainly long enough to give the person a chance to try to retrieve their items.

I guess overall I do think there are valid reasons for being able to relocate a corpse, though I do understand and agree that it'd be good to have something in place to both help in the event of griefing but to not discourage conflict RP from occurring at all.

Edit: Nobody posted before I did but after I started, but I like their idea of having player-initiated NPC services available if PC assistance isn't quite as reliable (or possible), as opposed to an automatic type of dealio. The paid service which is easy peasy retrieval and the pain service, which is something that could involve a bit of unique occult related functions (or depending on the area sorcerous related functions). Both functional, just different flavor text (and associated costs).
Last edited by Agelity on Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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