Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

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Talyn
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Talyn »

In this situation, it's a hard topic. On one hand they have already paid the price of conflict RP, Death. However, with that being said it comes down to an honor system which is a bit frustrating. I kill you, you get your gear, hunt me down, and then kills me and thus turns into this endless cycle character hate. If my character does something it's not me doing it. That's the whole CvC vs PvP thing. I've been sitting here on the sidelines watching this unfold and thinking about CvC right now. We all live in Shadgard, it's a dark and gritty life. We go out and adventure, ect, but at the end of the day. Many of us return to our home, Shadgard, besides those strange ones who like to camp out in the snow.

Now don't get me wrong, I would hate to lose my corpse in this, but I would also hope that whatever RP I got myself into would explain WHY it occurred, can I get myself out of it, and where will the RP unfold next. There will always be players who want to be antagonistic, even I was joking about making a 'rogue' character who's checking traps in an areas, finds them, but says the coast is clear while sending the big warriors in first. Clearly that's grounds for a good ol'fashion buttwhooping for that rogue like character. Though what comes around goes around. If an Antagonistic character is constantly causing trouble and is killed, should also be punished. The hardest thing I've seen in games is people wanting to be baddies who finally get killed, resurrect due to being undying, and going on their evil way doing the same thing next week. (Not saying it happens here, but I've seen it happen a few times in another game).

It really feels like it comes down to player honor here in the sense of having fun, sensitivity shouldn't get in the way on either side. The game is dark and gritty you get that from the start, going out of your way to cause trouble, paying the price, and that character seeking to teach you a lesson should be no different. Just make sure it's not constant. I know if I was in this person's shoes and I was getting killed, I would stop my RP and try to recover my body, even with the help of my 'killer'. Then grow stronger by leaving that character alone until I could handle myself.

As for helping the system though, I have always thought being able to loot something, at least one thing off the corpse would be a neat idea. As would a percentage loss of skill practice. That way if someone is playing an antagonistic character and people kill them, they could cut them back on their future plans forcing them to recover as well rather then moving to do another evil thing shortly after. (I'm sure this isn't the case here but I've had some pretty bad experiences lately in other games with this)
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Lexx416
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Lexx416 »

Talyn wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:50 pm Now don't get me wrong, I would hate to lose my corpse in this, but I would also hope that whatever RP I got myself into would explain WHY it occurred, can I get myself out of it, and where will the RP unfold next. There will always be players who want to be antagonistic, even I was joking about making a 'rogue' character who's checking traps in an areas, finds them, but says the coast is clear while sending the big warriors in first. Clearly that's grounds for a good ol'fashion buttwhooping for that rogue like character. Though what comes around goes around. If an Antagonistic character is constantly causing trouble and is killed, should also be punished. The hardest thing I've seen in games is people wanting to be baddies who finally get killed, resurrect due to being undying, and going on their evil way doing the same thing next week. (Not saying it happens here, but I've seen it happen a few times in another game).

This is something that's come to mind for me, honestly. There's basically zero recourse for Undying Bad Guys, except to either get them exiled from town, or to put them in a jail cell. The former at least allows them to keep playing (though in a way that may not be great for them), and the latter is ALSO just an Anti-Fun mechanic (which is basically the same as corpse-hiding) so I don't love it. If a player is using the Disguise system as a Bad Guy AND is Undying, there's basically ZERO recourse except to outlevel or outskill them so that they can't bother you. And none of that sounds particularly great for conflict or conflict resolution.

This is in part what leads to cyclical, competitive behavior that can ultimately breed a very toxic environment that can be very off putting to new players, which isn't ideal.
"You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods... Remnants of an older time they be, living few and secretly, wild and wary as beasts."
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Karjus
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Karjus »

I'm in a mixed position here, mostly because dragging corpses *can* create and be a great source of RP, especially here where people aren't tied to a corpse. Like Irylia said, it isn't even like you have to just go idle while things are happening. You've got tons of routes you can take, though albeit from a position of weakness. And not just for the person who was killed, but other people too. I've done so numerous times in the "other game", and even forced players into worse positions that created even more RP (who took it like a champ). So, I can totally see it as a tool in the arsenal of villains to further conflict/RP beyond just violence and instead have some sort of discourse.

At the same time, I can also understand a desire to just have a very simple/hard/fast rule so that issues like this don't occur. I mean, it already has once, but the person who died found the corpse pretty quickly and it wasn't an issue. It certainly would reduce potential aggro for Staff.
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Rias
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Rias »

@Acarin:

My invitation for you to post publicly was regarding your thoughts on the ideas in my post, not the specifics of the incident between you and the other player. Sorry I was unclear about that.
I do think that if you are trying to create a game where conflict is allowed, then not being able to drag a corpse is ridiculous.
Can you expound on that a little? What exactly about not allowing the dragging of someone's corpse away in a specifically unhelpful manner makes it ridiculous to claim the game supports conflict? Is making a character's death more difficult to recover from somehow integral to the concept of a game that supports conflict? Can the claim not be made without allowing people to hide peoples' corpses from them?

I agree that people should deal with the IC consequences of their actions IC. But I do feel lines have to be drawn somewhere to keep the game enjoyable for everyone - hence the no looting of player corpses thing, which has been a thing from day 1. This incident brought up another specific worry of mine that I hadn't gotten around to really thinking about too hard or addressing yet, and so here we are discussing it.

For clarification: The room you were locked in was unlockable from the inside without a key. I've got an update queued up to indicate this when someone attempts to pick the lock on a door that is lockable/unlockable from that side without requiring a key, and it will prompt the user to use the UNLOCK command. Additionally, that specific door was buggy in that it was keyless lockable/unlockable both from the outside and the inside, which should not have been the case. It's now only possible to do so without a key from the inside, meaning it's no longer possible to lock someone in from the outside, which was silly (even if it's possible to just unlock it again without a key from the inside).

@Irylia:

This isn't to say there won't be GM-supported events where corpses might be more difficult to retrieve or things like that, but those will be clearly-indicated special events and will have a specific path to resolution.

-----

And lastly, regarding some comments I've received regarding my idea to discourage unhelpful corpse-dragging: It's not only aimed at "bad guys". Everyone would be held to this standard. Whether it's a dastardly Harbinger who just killed a kindly physicker (alas, his moustache could not save him from everything) or a noble Wyrvardn who just put down a self-professed "evil incarnate" warlock who was trying to take over the world, the policy stands: Good job, you have triumphed and killed your opponent - now resist the temptation to make it harder for them to get back on their feet.
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Lexx416
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Lexx416 »

Rias wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:15 pm And lastly, regarding some comments I've received regarding my idea to discourage unhelpful corpse-dragging: It's not only aimed at "bad guys". Everyone would be held to this standard. Whether it's a dastardly Harbinger who just killed a kindly physicker (alas, his moustache could not save him from everything) or a noble Wyrvardn who just put down a self-professed "evil incarnate" warlock who was trying to take over the world, the policy stands: Good job, you have triumphed and killed your opponent - now resist the temptation to make it harder for them to get back on their feet.
100%. That's my fear with Corpse-Dragging. Regardless of "alignment" or IC Intention, it becomes the End-All-Be-All way to 'deal with someone'. And I don't think "Hidden Corpse War" would end up being particularly fun for probably most of the game. Which is why I'm a big proponent of just disallowing it through policy, and adding a little thing that triggers when you go to drag a PC corpse.
"You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods... Remnants of an older time they be, living few and secretly, wild and wary as beasts."
Agelity
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Agelity »

I know for at least one instance I was able to drag a corpse out from a location the person was otherwise unable to actually retrieve said corpse from (drowned, no skill in swimming at the time to retrieve it themselves), so I'd certainly personally prefer some method of having it relocated, at least from particularly inconvenient locations. Perhaps a limit on how far it can be dragged (if you kill someone, perhaps a "corpse hiding" function to all but the deceased, so you could move it off of a main road or something but no further, while the deceased would have some kind of "intuition" that their corpse was nearby and could easily be found, as long as it was in the same general area). Would make it known that the corpse was at least within a short area of where they died so it can easily be found just by exploring within a few rooms, but also moved out of areas where it may be impossible for the individual to retrieve it themselves, as it is something that can currently occur.
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Edoras
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Edoras »

I really like Rias' response. I appreciate that he's set hard limits on the potential impact any one player can have on another, with the one extremely clear rule of "never allowing player looting of corpses" for example. That's not to say that MUDs which have such rules are great or not: I've spent thousands of hours on one that was completely open PvP with full looting, and I enjoyed it greatly even though I would never expect it or want it in Cogg.

From my experience, whenever a game permits players to impact other players, whether it's an RP-based game or not, conflict RP inevitably trends towards characters inflicting the maximum possible harm to another character within the bounds of the game rules. If that's a full loot, it's a full loot. If it's hiding bodies, it's hiding bodies. If it's killing them multiple times per day, it's killing them multiple times per day.

I don't view that as a bad thing so much as a natural thing: Enacting the most possible pain on another player is the most effective tool a player (or character) has to cause their will to become reality, and it's just as hard to justify -not- doing so from an RP perspective in the same way that it's disingenuous to claim that someone is griefing another person OOC because they were punishing in IC conflict.

I suppose I only have a few points I'd like to make about this discussion: Two to the player-base and one to Rias.

To players:
1) When you lose a conflict and another character harms you as a result, please don't immediately presume that they have it out for you OOC or that they're griefing (Navi, you did that in this thread). That's hard to do when you're already frustrated at losing, but remember that not everyone "wins" all the time and the best thing to do is adjust your RP to match what actually happened instead of what you wish happened.
2) When you win a conflict and inflict harm on another character as a result, remember that there's a player behind that character as well, and it's very hard to find players whose RP doesn't drop in quality when they're upset OOC over a lost battle. They're almost guaranteed not to "play it right" in one way or another, and you're in this case the absolute worst person to play RP police if you want everyone involved to continue to have fun. Let them cool off a bit and don't push the issue if they seem genuinely upset as a player. Acarin, I feel like you didn't keep this principle in mind very well throughout this entire process.

To Rias (And ultimately for everyone else to recognize is a very difficult decision):
3) It's ultimately your decision to decide where the point of greatest inflicted pain lies from a mechanics standpoint, and as such the theoretical point that virtually every conflict is bound to head. Set this point too high, and the game environment becomes toxic as players are driven away by hours of their work discarded on will to them feel like flimsy IC reasons. Set this point too low, and you'll drive away players who want to feel as if their hard-earned victories matter, since their victories will have no teeth. Of course, there will always be players driven away because of this point being set too high or too low, regardless of where you set it. Personally, I love the angle you've gone with so far and think it's a healthy position for the game to be placed in. I think the greatest "downside" of the current inflictable loss being somewhat low is that someone who decides to ignore CvC losses might seem like they're "getting away with it" but I think that the proper response for that is that the playerbase at large will likely end up ostracizing that player naturally even without any sort of coded mechanic requiring such.
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Karjus
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Karjus »

Edoras wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:09 pm I really like Rias' response. I appreciate that he's set hard limits on the potential impact any one player can have on another, with the one extremely clear rule of "never allowing player looting of corpses" for example. That's not to say that MUDs which have such rules are great or not: I've spent thousands of hours on one that was completely open PvP with full looting, and I enjoyed it greatly even though I would never expect it or want it in Cogg.

From my experience, whenever a game permits players to impact other players, whether it's an RP-based game or not, conflict RP inevitably trends towards characters inflicting the maximum possible harm to another character within the bounds of the game rules. If that's a full loot, it's a full loot. If it's hiding bodies, it's hiding bodies. If it's killing them multiple times per day, it's killing them multiple times per day.

I don't view that as a bad thing so much as a natural thing: Enacting the most possible pain on another player is the most effective tool a player (or character) has to cause their will to become reality, and it's just as hard to justify -not- doing so from an RP perspective in the same way that it's disingenuous to claim that someone is griefing another person OOC because they were punishing in IC conflict.

I suppose I only have a few points I'd like to make about this discussion: Two to the player-base and one to Rias.

To players:
1) When you lose a conflict and another character harms you as a result, please don't immediately presume that they have it out for you OOC or that they're griefing (Navi, you did that in this thread). That's hard to do when you're already frustrated at losing, but remember that not everyone "wins" all the time and the best thing to do is adjust your RP to match what actually happened instead of what you wish happened.
2) When you win a conflict and inflict harm on another character as a result, remember that there's a player behind that character as well, and it's very hard to find players whose RP doesn't drop in quality when they're upset OOC over a lost battle. They're almost guaranteed not to "play it right" in one way or another, and you're in this case the absolute worst person to play RP police if you want everyone involved to continue to have fun. Let them cool off a bit and don't push the issue if they seem genuinely upset as a player. Acarin, I feel like you didn't keep this principle in mind very well throughout this entire process.

To Rias (And ultimately for everyone else to recognize is a very difficult decision):
3) It's ultimately your decision to decide where the point of greatest inflicted pain lies from a mechanics standpoint, and as such the theoretical point that virtually every conflict is bound to head. Set this point too high, and the game environment becomes toxic as players are driven away by hours of their work discarded on will to them feel like flimsy IC reasons. Set this point too low, and you'll drive away players who want to feel as if their hard-earned victories matter, since their victories will have no teeth. Of course, there will always be players driven away because of this point being set too high or too low, regardless of where you set it. Personally, I love the angle you've gone with so far and think it's a healthy position for the game to be placed in. I think the greatest "downside" of the current inflictable loss being somewhat low is that someone who decides to ignore CvC losses might seem like they're "getting away with it" but I think that the proper response for that is that the playerbase at large will likely end up ostracizing that player naturally even without any sort of coded mechanic requiring such.
While I may not agree with everything Edoras said, his points to the players are fantastic and in my opinion spot on as is his comment to you Rias.
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Acarin
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Acarin »

Perhaps an increased penalty of some kind for repeated deaths would be warranted to disuade people from running immediately back out and getting themself killed over and over?

I agree with many of your points Edoras, but I'm not playing the game to care about how Navi feels and I can't make myself do that. Throwing what equates to an in game tantrum and an OOC tantrum is not going to make me change how I play my character or try to be understanding. I know that sounds cold but I'm basing this on a history of interactions. I could step back but then I would be compromising my own character's rp and my own enjoyment. Not going to do that for Navi. I'm not willing to be sensitive (by choice).
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Karjus
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Re: Moving player bodies to other locations other than the crypts.

Post by Karjus »

Acarin wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:22 pm Perhaps an increased penalty of some kind for repeated deaths would be warranted to disuade people from running immediately back out and getting themself killed over and over?

I agree with many of your points Edoras, but I'm not playing the game to care about how Navi feels and I can't make myself do that. Throwing what equates to an in game tantrum and an OOC tantrum is not going to make me change how I play my character or try to be understanding. I know that sounds cold but I'm basing this on a history of interactions. I could step back but then I would be compromising my own character's rp and my own enjoyment. Not going to do that for Navi. I'm not willing to be sensitive (by choice).
All I can say. is no one ever takes losing well. People try to, but in general most people get upset and frequently act out more than they would otherwise. I'm guilty of it. For some people, it doesn't take much to turn an unhappy situation to a full blown tantrum. Does that mean they should get everything go their way? Hell no. Is it going to cost you, in said situation from choosing to just snicker and step back while they're wailing away? It would be a weird case of both working ICly and OOCly. Just how does it compromise your character, to show themselves as being in a position of strength, when the other player is obviously not in the most coherent of minds? I feel like after any conflict, it's up to the losing party how to go forward from there. Do they want to escalate the situation, or tone it down.
- Karjus

Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
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