Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

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Rias
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Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by Rias »

The concept of tiered abilities is something I've mulled over several times, and I'm considering it again while pondering how to improve ranged combat. Tiered abilities are essentially abilities you can invest multiple ability points into.

Example tiered ability: Deadeye (disclaimer: this is just for an example, haven't put a lot of thought into the balance of this particular ability and its tiers yet)
Tier 1: +1 to rerolls granted by the Aim Shot command
Tier 2: -1 roundtime incurred by using the Aim Shot command
Tier 3: +1 additional reroll granted by the Aim Shot command

So each tier would require an additional ability point to unlock. On top of that, some abilities might be available to everyone at tier 1, but only specific guilds/classes would have access to higher tiers. Everyone might have access to Deadeye Tier 1 regardless of guild or class, while Tier 2 might be only available to Nightblades, Rangers, and Marksmen (temporary name for to-be-released ranged warrior class), and Tier 3 only to Marksmen.

Any feedback on the concept would be appreciated.
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Agelity
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Re: Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by Agelity »

I love the idea of tiered abilities, though in terms of investing additional ability points into an ability you already have, I think I'd personally be considering whether I could get away without the extra investment to spend on another ability that can grant me something else unique and fun, but certainly for the right tiered perks it makes it all the more appealing to invest in (like if tier 2 or 3 also provided a chance to not have your aim thrown off if an attack comes at you but misses, or something).

Depending on the ability or "tier" I could also see skill requirements playing a role, like how Vitality has an additional effect for Druidry at 400+, which only Primalists have access to so it works as a bit of a "soft" gate. I could see a system that supported both models depending on the ability and determined perks (versus spending another ability point to augment Vitality when I already invested a bunch of skill points).
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Irylia
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Re: Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by Irylia »

I love the concept, but I do worry about using so many ability points when not all general abilities are even out yet. It makes things really hard from a planning standpoint since societies aren't in-game and might have their own abilities to offer as well. I would also want to make sure the tier upgrades are worthy of that point investment so they might need a bit more oomph per level.

Maybe tiers can be based on something else instead like guild rank (also not in yet) or skill level. The initial ability costs an ability point and then additional bonuses unlock as your character progresses naturally through the game. Alternatively, maybe it could require additional training from a specialist through some kind of elaborate task or "lessons" that are paid for and advance over time to unlock if a passive unlock isn't wanted. An example might be that once your character meets the criteria to level an ability they have to go to a guild trainer and take one lesson per day and need to take # lessons to advance to the next tier.

Or their guild sends them on a multi-part chain task that unlocks the tiers as you complete each part. The task would be related to whatever the ability is and each new part would only unlock when all criteria are met. This could be a way to give more life to NPCs involved and add more depth to character development rather than spending a point to instantly unlock the next level.

**Oh, I do like the idea of certain tiers being class or guild locked. I think that's a good way to make sure there's uniqueness and specialization.
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Maina
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Re: Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by Maina »

An interesting concept, but I'm curious:

Is there a meaningful difference between having three tiers of Deadeye (as listed) compared to something like:

Marksman: +1 to rerolls granted by the Aim Shot command
Sharpshooter: -1 roundtime incurred by using the Aim Shot command, requires Marksman
Deadeye: +1 additional reroll granted by the Aim Shot command, requires Sharpshooter

They seem functionally the same, but it's more satisfying, on a purely emotional and subjective level, to be buying three "different" abilities rather than upgrading the same one twice.
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Re: Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by nobody »

If I'm understanding your example correctly, tiered abilities consist of three components:
  • Prerequisite structure (exists elsewhere, completely fine with it)
  • Stacking/complementary benefit (stacking: +1 reroll -> +2 reroll, complementary: +1 reroll -> -1 roundtime - I'm good with these though it may make sense to split the complementary bits into a separate tiered ability? It also makes it difficult to determine where the tier ceiling should be)
  • Shared name space (You don't need to come up with three different ability names that convey that you've been trained with / specialize in aiming shots - also good with this)
Overall I don't have any issues with it, and it seems like an easy way to make sure there are enough abilities available to everyone that each person actually has to pick and choose what they want.
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Re: Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by Rias »

Maina wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:57 am They seem functionally the same, but it's more satisfying, on a purely emotional and subjective level, to be buying three "different" abilities rather than upgrading the same one twice.
I get that. Hmm. As Nobody mentioned, it does help save me from having to come up with a bunch of different names/terms, and setting each up as a completely separate ability in the code. The tiered stuff may be best to keep to purely "just like the previous one, but moreso" rather than throwing in additional effects. Those that find them worth it can take them, those that prefer more variety in unique abilities can refrain.

And as Agelity said, there can still be cases like the Vitality example where simply having enough skill unlocks another effect/tier.

The main intent here is to be able to open up more abilities to general usage regardless of guild/class with the lower tier stuff, but still ensuring the specialists (based on guild/class) get the most out of them and the best versions, so they can properly feel that they are indeed the specialists.
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Re: Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by nobody »

Rias wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:09 amThe main intent here is to be able to open up more abilities to general usage regardless of guild/class with the lower tier stuff, but still ensuring the specialists (based on guild/class) get the most out of them and the best versions, so they can properly feel that they are indeed the specialists.
I suppose I should ask, what is the alternative if you don't go with tiered abilities?
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Re: Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by Rias »

nobody wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:30 am I suppose I should ask, what is the alternative if you don't go with tiered abilities?
I didn't really have any in mind, just wanted thoughts on this idea proposal. If people have suggestions for alternatives, this is the place to post them!
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Karjus
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Re: Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by Karjus »

I tend to be of the opinion of having either additional effects unlocked with further skill/affinities like some do now.

For example, maybe Inner Strength at X amount of Rage affinity offers an increase to the strength it provides while Y amount of Discipline affinity offers an increase of passive energy regeneration alongside the strength bonus it provides.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of abilities improving in different ways beyond your chance of hitting getting better with skill increases but I'm not sure sinking 3 ability points into what is basically the same unlocked "action" is the right way to go. Hard to judge with new abilities being added, and things being fleshed.
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Rias
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Re: Feedback wanted: Tiered abilities

Post by Rias »

All right, it seems like the ability point part is what most people don't like, which is understandable. To set up another example, let's say we open up the Tackle ability to everyone. I'd want members of the Warrior guild to have an improved version of it, and then Dreadnoughts, Guardians, Berserkers, and Marauders have a further improved version. Not worrying about what those improvements specifically are at the moment, let's worry about how to set it up so that the tiers are distributed as outlined.

Ideas:

- Make it so simply being a member of the Warrior Guild, and the specified classes, automatically unlocks the associated higher tiers
- Like above, but also requiring a certain guild rank (based on Irylia's suggestion)
- Seek an NPC trainer who unlocks the higher tier for you if you meet the guild/class requirements (based on Irylia's suggestion)
- Have the higher tier unlocked as a reward for a specific task/chain of tasks (based on Irylia's suggestion)

I honestly like all these possibilities, and am tempted to pick and choose from them, based on what feels best for each individual ability. A potential worry being that things become a bit too muddied, but variety is also the spice of life.

Any other ideas to throw into the mix?

P.S. The above isn't to say there won't also be unlocks that could be achieved through a particular skill or affinity level. I like Karjus's ideas about affinity-based bonuses, which was kind of the point of the affinity system in the first place. These don't have to be mutually exclusive with the above ideas.
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