Guild Niches

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alila
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:16 am

Guild Niches

Post by alila »

Hi,

It has been made abundantly clear, both in forum posts and in development, that warriors are designed to specialize in combat. More than any other guild, their strengths are in the combat system. However and maybe this is a misunderstanding of intent or balance or specializations, but it feels as if maybe this kind of role has not been quite as elaborated upon for scholars and adventurers.

With the usual I understand COGG is in alpha and thus many things are undeveloped kind of disclaimer, I have noticed there tends to be a comparison of guilds based on how they perform in combat, and not much else. Maybe an issue is sometimes it feels as if other guilds are described in terms of what they cannot do in combat, to an extent? Adventurers have abilities to help them circumvent combat; scholars are the least combat oriented. Which is okay, but how can we establish the other guilds are the least scholar-system oriented, or the least adventurer-system oriented? What would these systems be?

An argument is scholars specialize in their respective fields of study: medicine, sorcery, arcana and so forth. However, I would argue this is not really a system in the same sense as combat? For comparison, Nightblades are stealth combat, marauders are dirty tricks combat, guardians are combat protection, duelists are light armor offense combat. Essentially, they have a unifying theme of combat. Sorcery, druidry, arcana, and medicine do not really seem to have the same broader guild niche? What could or should this be? Where should scholars, not the individual subclasses, feel special?

Adventurers are a curious in-between case. Their role would seem to be, well, adventuring. Exploring and climbing and the like. The perceived difficulty here is two-fold: first, and I hope this would change with abilities for them, adventuring is more or less equal-access at the moment. In fact, in some cases warriors would seem to be even better at it presently, given they have the combat skills to survive and explore high combat skill areas, something which may only become more pronounced once CvC zones are released. The exceptions are skill caps, where if an adventurer wishes to feel more adventure-y than the other guilds, they should invest over 1000 skill points in climbing or swimming to be over the general cap. However, the second issue is about adventuring itself. What is it, on its own merits, a perpetual kind of mechanic? What is the system which adventurers can consistently participate and excel at to do things for themselves? Currently, the closest example would seem to be the treasure scavenging, but for as fun as lockpicking is, there are other ways to find boxes. Ultimately, scavenging is poking at the box cooldowns for shinies.

In summary, if warriors have combat as an overarching and highly nuanced progression system to interact with, something they can consistently engage with and gain rewards, suffer consequences, what will these be for adventurers and scholars? Is there something else which makes combat fun I neglected to list? How would these apply to what scholars and adventurers would be able to do? Please share thoughts and have opinions, but keep in mind this is only minorly about the present. COGG is unfinished, and so mostly this is hopefully a post to discuss things which could be maybe an issue if they linger in the future, or how they might not be after more work on things?

-Alila
alila
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Re: Guild Niches

Post by alila »

It is worth clarifying and apologizing: I am not comparing the other guilds to warriors in how they lack as a way to say warriors are too powerful or anything of the sort. Warriors are powerful where they are supposed to be--mainly, combat. But even if they are not yet so, relative to the other guilds, they would seem to be the most complete. It would be nice to see the adventurers and scholars at the same level of proficiency in their own roles, but even more so, to understand how the game mechanics could be expanded to give everyone these opportunities, and then set the adventurers and scholars apart for being able of doing more with them.
Prism
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Re: Guild Niches

Post by Prism »

I don't have -much- of a response to this, but it got me thinking.

In my opinion, if combat is the main loop that warriors are intended to engage with , and find the most utility with as a system, I would think the following are what scholars and adventurers respectively are, at least, by my perception, intended to be focusing into once the game is in a more "finished" state.

-Scholars, being the go to channelers, medics, and more eccentric sorts of occultists strike me as the "support" niche of the game. I don't mean support in, say, terms of crafting persay. More so that they seem to have the set up of being an all around utility to make the efforts of -everyone- a bit less stressful. Physickers can do more intense healing on-site and provide useful therapies, arcanists, using their glyphs, can provide utility for individuals (and probbaly more of their items, in the future) in a variety of fashions, Warlocks are uniquely qualified to confront, deal with, and understand netherim-- which is a type of enemy which gives typical combatants and other PCs more problems than typical mobs, needless to mention the additional benefits their abilities offer in terms of combatability.

I think as systems continue to develop and expand, we'll see a lot more of that dedicated support utility blossom. In time, they'll be able to play around with more herbalism based tools, brewing based tools, glyphs, and sorcerous tools to further expand that support utility and make it more all-encumpassing as opposed to niche, as it is at the specific moment. With all of the proposed mechanics in the pipeline, I see them filling this niche rather effortlessly-- at least, based on my excessive optimism. We could potentailly have al ot of different brews and medicines and things that could have varying effects, beneficial and otherwise. So having people dedicated to these crafts will be cool, too.

-Adventurers, on the other hand, strike me as the "Dungeoneers" of the system. They're all about having ensured access to areas that would otherwise be difficult to enter, and making it more/less difficult for individuals to enter/exit those areas. They can climb better, they can swim better, they can track better, and eventually, I think, the'll have a more robust array of traps to help with that zoning aspect of "keeping people out" (E.G: mobs overwhelming the party, mean players chasing you down who need to be thrown off the trail)

Disarming traps in "dungeon" like areas is probably going to be a thing, i'd imagine. And when parties go on group raids, the adventurer will be the one spotting traps, leading them through the dangerous area, warning the party about potential dangers, and, of course, eventually helping the party get access to that sweet, sweet loot. Whether via locksmithing, artifice (Think Indiana Jones swapping the artifact in Raiders of the Lost Ark) or something else entirely. As an additional note, it would stand to reason that if adventurers are the ones that are most likely to have access to these areas unassisted, that they'll be the most informed about said areas, thus, facilitating their ability to lead people their, have knowledge of the dangers within, and have a rough roadmap as to how to guide the party toward the treasures within.


I'm done rambling now, though. These were all just random thoughts from my own perception on how I think it'll all come together. But I appreciate you encouraging said thoughts, Alila. Always good to think about these things as we move forward.
"The sky, above the clouds; A rainbow that fate has devoured
I gave up Hope
But I'm not going to be lost tomorrow; Even if it is hell
I'm gonna' crawl. "
alila
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Guild Niches

Post by alila »

Prism wrote: -Scholars, being the go to channelers, medics, and more eccentric sorts of occultists strike me as the "support" niche of the game. I don't mean support in, say, terms of crafting persay. More so that they seem to have the set up of being an all around utility to make the efforts of -everyone- a bit less stressful. Physickers can do more intense healing on-site and provide useful therapies, arcanists, using their glyphs, can provide utility for individuals (and probbaly more of their items, in the future) in a variety of fashions, Warlocks are uniquely qualified to confront, deal with, and understand netherim-- which is a type of enemy which gives typical combatants and other PCs more problems than typical mobs, needless to mention the additional benefits their abilities offer in terms of combatability.
Maybe one of my main points, and one you somewhat touched upon with the word "loop", is that combat is a big self-contained system. There are combat stealth mechanics, ranged and melee, defense rolls. It is true there is already some of this "support" niche idea in physickers being healers, but overall, combat is something warriors can do consistently and engagingly. It is true COGG is ultimately a cooperative game, but there should be a line between cooperative and waiting around for other players to need you. In an odd way, even the unreleased artisan's guild have an advantage in this regard because there are already systems like farming and mining in place which can serve as major components of a "crafting loop", as it were. What would these loops be like for scholars and adventurers?
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Zombilicious
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Re: Guild Niches

Post by Zombilicious »

One of the issues in thinking of added things for Adventurers, specifically, to do is that not all Adventurers are "dungeoneer" types -- for instance, I play a Bard. While Bards can be dungeoneer types, they also don't easily fit into that mold and would require special consideration other than simply adding dungeoneering to them. The same goes, I feel, to Warlocks and Primalists, who may not simply be "eccentric occultists" and may instead want to go out into the field for something more interesting than merely being stuck into this very specific role of "Netherim Handler" or "Smart Druid Thing". (Also, be careful putting Warlocks out there against netherim and stuff, currently. I think nether empowers ghosties?)

While I appreciate that niches are nice, and obviously the warriors have an easier time being given things that interact with the world because their scope is slightly more limited to "Argh, Hulk smash." (a system that every MUD has, so there is no reinventing the wheel), the Scholars and Adventurers are somewhat less simple, as each specialization within the Scholar and Adventurer Guild handle their stuff differently. Treasurers and Rangers might wanna roam the world, but Rogues might be far more interested simply staying in towns, where the quarry is easier to find. And obviously Bards are spread out more than that even.
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Prism
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Re: Guild Niches

Post by Prism »

Zombilicious wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:49 am One of the issues in thinking of added things for Adventurers, specifically, to do is that not all Adventurers are "dungeoneer" types -- for instance, I play a Bard. While Bards can be dungeoneer types, they also don't easily fit into that mold and would require special consideration other than simply adding dungeoneering to them. The same goes, I feel, to Warlocks and Primalists, who may not simply be "eccentric occultists" and may instead want to go out into the field for something more interesting than merely being stuck into this very specific role of "Netherim Handler" or "Smart Druid Thing". (Also, be careful putting Warlocks out there against netherim and stuff, currently. I think nether empowers ghosties?)

While I appreciate that niches are nice, and obviously the warriors have an easier time being given things that interact with the world because their scope is slightly more limited to "Argh, Hulk smash." (a system that every MUD has, so there is no reinventing the wheel), the Scholars and Adventurers are somewhat less simple, as each specialization within the Scholar and Adventurer Guild handle their stuff differently. Treasurers and Rangers might wanna roam the world, but Rogues might be far more interested simply staying in towns, where the quarry is easier to find. And obviously Bards are spread out more than that even.
The reason I appreciate this post so significantly is because it highlights just how limited my own experience/exposure is to a lot of the mechanics here on Cogg. It's a lot of the reason I'm thankful Alila initiated said insight as well; I'm obviously aware that the bards exist, and the primalists, and the rogues and treasure hunters. But it's so easy for me, personally, to look at the label of "adventurer" and just immediately think "ranger". That's a personal failing though, really. So again-- insight massively appreciated. These are all things certainly worth thinking about that escaped my thought process entirely.
alila wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:47 am
Prism wrote: -Scholars, being the go to channelers, medics, and more eccentric sorts of occultists strike me as the "support" niche of the game. I don't mean support in, say, terms of crafting persay. More so that they seem to have the set up of being an all around utility to make the efforts of -everyone- a bit less stressful. Physickers can do more intense healing on-site and provide useful therapies, arcanists, using their glyphs, can provide utility for individuals (and probbaly more of their items, in the future) in a variety of fashions, Warlocks are uniquely qualified to confront, deal with, and understand netherim-- which is a type of enemy which gives typical combatants and other PCs more problems than typical mobs, needless to mention the additional benefits their abilities offer in terms of combatability.
Maybe one of my main points, and one you somewhat touched upon with the word "loop", is that combat is a big self-contained system. There are combat stealth mechanics, ranged and melee, defense rolls. It is true there is already some of this "support" niche idea in physickers being healers, but overall, combat is something warriors can do consistently and engagingly. It is true COGG is ultimately a cooperative game, but there should be a line between cooperative and waiting around for other players to need you. In an odd way, even the unreleased artisan's guild have an advantage in this regard because there are already systems like farming and mining in place which can serve as major components of a "crafting loop", as it were. What would these loops be like for scholars and adventurers?
Much as stated above-- the insight here is nice to see. What I see as a "specialization" or "niche" does entirely rely on other players doing something to facilitate a need for that niche or specialization. I totally got the point that you were trying to get to with your thought process, but I was thinking of it in a less broad fashion than I really thought I was.

This certainly requires some more thought-chewing on my part, but you guys have me really interested in thinking on it and firing up suggestions for people to consider/critique. Thanks!
"The sky, above the clouds; A rainbow that fate has devoured
I gave up Hope
But I'm not going to be lost tomorrow; Even if it is hell
I'm gonna' crawl. "
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Maina
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Re: Guild Niches

Post by Maina »

I have been pondering this. Disclaimer: I am not a game designer. I am pretty garbage at it when I try. But I wanted to contribute.

As I see it, the 'big picture' for each guild has three components:

1. What does the guild do? What is its gameplay loop? I will cover this in a bit.

2. How does the guild participate in a party? I think we have this pretty well in-hand. Adventurers play scout and gather loot. Warriors fight. Scholars buff/debuff. Eventually, crafters may get field repairs and gear buffs when the guild is released.

3. It also seems to be that there is intentional design space for classes that skirt the boundaries between guilds. I think this could be more deliberately focused on. Nightblades skirt the line between adventurer and warrior by acting as combat scouts and specialists. Warlocks could have a bigger focus on this, but they seem to skirt the line between scholar and warrior with all their combat spells. Bards could skirt the line between adventurer and scholar due to the lore they know from stories and history, as well as having their own support magic. This is my answer to how Bards don't quite fit Prism's categories; they do, but they skirt the line between two. Crafters, when implemented, could be unique in that they could have a specialty to cross each boundary. A warrior-crafter (armor and weapons), an adventurer-crafter (ropes, lockpicks, food, etc), a scholar crafter (books, scrolls, writing implements, other things that will become more evident below), and a crafter-crafter (crafts tools and intermediate materials that other crafters use). I suppose, in this sense, physicker straddles the line with crafter. Or will in the future.

So, gameplay loops? The core premise of this thread? Here are my ideas:

Warriors are the easiest. They fight things. This is already pretty thoroughly designed and implemented.

Adventurers? I think Prism had the right idea. Dungeon delving. There should be Old Aetgard ruins all over the place. Perhaps we could have these randomly generated and instanced so adventurers can go in, disarm traps, solve puzzles, and find artifacts. Not just magic artifacts like the bowstrings, but also taking rubbings of ancient inscriptions, recovering old tomes, finding statues that could be 'sketched' and presented to scholars for study. The main idea is adventures are what you want if you want to search out treasure and lore. They find it and bring it back to sell or give to scholars to study. These dungeons would not have monsters, just traps and other dangers that they are built around rather than combat. Bards would be weaker at this in exchange for being able to handle some of the 'scholar' aspects themselves, since they straddle the line between the two guilds. Tasks could involve finding specific items from ruins or going to specific ruins in specific places. Other classes could do this, too, much like non-warriors can fight, but it should be perilous and dangerous for non-adventurers much like combat is for non-warriors.

Scholars? This one is a bit trickier, but a scholar should be a scholar. They should have a place in the game researching artifacts and their magic of choice. Maybe instead of a quivering bowstring being used by just anyone, it needs to be studied by a scholar and identified before it can be used. Now this gives them a place in the game, but it does not give them their own gameplay loop. Just a part of someone else's loop. So maybe each scholar needs to find sources of their type of magic (druidry rooms, nether wells, glyph plates) or certain types of injures and afflictions (physickers) and study them/draw power off them then take that home to turn into books or tomes about what they've learned. Maybe there could be minigames either at the source of power or back home in the library to convert that knowledge/power into useable information. Maybe these books could be sold to other players to give experience boosts or other buffs when read? But the idea is that a scholar goes out, studies something relevant to their field, then comes home to turn it into something practical for themselves and others.

tl;dr (but please read the whole thing if you're going to reply): You play or hire a warrior if you want stuff dead. You play or hire an adventurer if you want to find lore or treasure. You play or hire a scholar if you want to learn things. You play or hire a crafter if you want to make things. Some classes can dabble in a second guild's forte at the cost of not being quite so strong in their own.
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