The Warlock Problem

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Ephemeralis
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:29 am

The Warlock Problem

Post by Ephemeralis »

Warlocks are a strange specialization. Presently, nearly every ability they have focuses on combat in some way - from the signature binding tendril (hereafter referred to as BT) to the scary essence leech (ELE) and as of late, even familiars.

Anyone looking at the ability list for warlocks would think they might be combat leaning, and for the first say 10 or 15 levels of playing one, they certainly feel that way. But they very quickly hit a wall - their caps. Warlocks have Arcana 500 and Sorcery 700 as caps, and that's it. 100% of their combat ability rolls rely on Ranged Combat, which is permanently stuck at 400 for a maxed warlock no matter what they do.

Then their "defensive" skills in shadow cloak and orb rely on Stealth, which is also permanently stuck at 400. This can be raised to about 500 or so with arcana glyphs, which is better, but still generally not enough. They struggle tremendously with armor if going the pure sorcery route - even with the incredible Willpower reroll, they will drop channels fairly frequently, not to mention the large energy cost involved in maintaining them.

So this begs the question: what exactly *is* warlock for? It is frequently said that it is a "support" specialization, but so far its support prospects seemed doomed to taper off into irrelevance on increasingly stronger mobs. Familiars are cool - up until the point where we start fighting things with iron weapons or other anti nethrim measures, then they'll be dead in a flash. Essence Transfer has some limited cooperative use, though gated somewhat behind the fact that it is an openly sorcerous skill and a fair few characters have concerns about having any use of nether applied to them.

Arcanist can presently replicate the support influence of the warlock with a single use of the dorun glyph, and then they don't need to be in the room to do any more after the fact.

Add onto this that Arcana and Sorcery both are presently some of the slowest skills to practice in the game, with Sorcery taking the crown in that you can only practice it by 4 every 8 hours, then pray for an extra +2 at a 50/50% chance from a scholar task that refreshes once every 30-45 mins, and you're left with a specialization that takes an incredibly long time to mature into only mediocrity at best. Other classes replicate the debilitating nature of the Warlock with single, spammable skills at a fraction of the effort to obtain and maintain. The only thing Warlock has going for it at the moment is that you can whisper people across zones for three minutes every now and then and unnerve people by barfing up your familiar in public settings.

Here's some suggestions on what I think might fix it:
  • Increase Warlock's stealth cap to 525. With glyph augmentation, this is 600 stealth. Orb and cloak bonuses should do the rest.
  • Consider making channeled sorcery scale off 75% of someone's Sorcery or 100% of their Ranged Combat skill, whichever is higher. At 700 Sorcery, this gives them an effective level of 525 and does not require them to invest points in RC to achieve it. The fantasy of this also makes sense - controlling where the nether goes should be an act of sorcery, not an act of John Wick aiming prowess - that'd be a Nightblade thing, if anything. If you do anything, do this one.
  • Add holdable sorcery foci with extreme weapon reach, or figure out some way of giving channelers the ranged fending/distance bonus that ranged weapons currently receive.
  • Consider lowering the energy drain for sorcery channel use. Anyone who wants to go the pure sorcery route finds themselves locked very quickly into cast->BT->ELE->repeat because you need both 100% BT uptime to not explode in solo fights and you REQUIRE the energy income from ELE to not pass out and die after a minute and a half of combat. Managing it is gruesome and it only gets worse the more channels you use.
  • Lower the sanity cost on familiar merging/detachment, or allow it to be resisted by willpower/meditation. The familiar is awesome and the distraction and passive defense it provides is great, but reasonably using it is unduly taxing on your sanity, especially given how hard it is to recover. You could halve it to -3.5 and it'd still be significant, but at least managable that way.
For good measure, have a few ability suggestions as well:
  • Set your familiar to guard someone in your group instead of you.
  • Talk through your familiar and teleport it to the location of someone you have a blood vial of, potentially allow it to deliver/ferry single small items this way.
  • Construct a golem shell through some other means and have your familiar inhabit it as a combat companion. For bonus points, make the golem ridable, though a slow, lumbering mount.
  • A panic contingency skill that exhausts your familiar and dismisses it when you're on the verge of death, but returns your soul fragment to you for a last burst of precious energy.
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Lexx416
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:14 pm

Re: The Warlock Problem

Post by Lexx416 »

So, I think ultimately the issue here is a similar issue I face as an exploration focused member of the adventurer guild - which is to say, there are systems intended down the road for Scholars (and specifically Warlocks) to interact with, in ways that the Warriors can't interact with them. So I absolutely understand your frustrations on that end of things.

I do think making raw nether casts a little bit better through higher sorcery would be nice, though I don't think I'd scale accuracy off of the Sorcery skill for raw casts, or for specialized abilities. I think for Warlocks that want to be a little more combat focused, a way to boost their efficacy in combat could be pretty neat though. The first thing that comes to mind is, instead of just allowing for Sorcery to supplant the ranged skill, an ability that lets them consume soul shreds from a talisman in order to give themselves a couple of rerolls on raw casts for X seconds - duration derived from Sorcery primarily, with maybe small boosts from Meditation, and then a percentage boost from Intuition and Willpower (which is in line with how many occult abilities currently work).

Place a cooldown timer on it's usage, and open it up to both Nightblades and Warlocks, with maybe an added efficiency bonus for Warlocks (they get much more bang for their buck, while Nightblades have to consume many more shreds). I'd also open the number of rerolls up to sheer sorcery skill as well. 1 extra reroll at 200, 2 extra at 400, and 3 extra at 700 being the absolute maximums that can be achieved.


I also think Warlocks could specifically benefit from abilities that augment their raw casts in other ways - advanced manipulation of Nether states. Things that come to mind are an ability that allows you to toggle debuffs attached to raw sorcery casts - turn the ability on, it causes extra energy drain while channeling, and can impart minor (but cumulative) debuffs as fear, sanity effects, morale, etc. Similarly, being able to manipulate nether's phase state would be useful in those regards too. An ability to solidify nether a little, so that it does minor additional piercing damage, an ability to cause it to "stick" by becoming more liquid like, doing Damage over Time, or to turn it into a gaseous form and fling it at a target, making it so that for X amount of seconds they have increased energy costs to their combat actions as they breath in noxious nether fumes.

All of those would go a long way to making Warlocks more interesting in combat, without explicitly making them more deadly or dangerous than a warrior.


Other than that, Warlocks (and all Scholars - Primalists have very little going for them, and Arcanists even less by comparison to Warlock's 10 abilities) just need other non-combat systems to interact with. Things to study, tasks to do, etc. - it's just a matter of getting those ideas out there into the world, and then Rias having the time necessary to work on them. Warriors in the not so distant past got a lot of love with new zones, abilities, etc., because for a very long time they had VERY little to do in the world that was unique. I imagine Scholars just need a little focus time (as do adventurers, when it comes to non-ability based content).
"You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods... Remnants of an older time they be, living few and secretly, wild and wary as beasts."
TheCacklackian
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:59 am

Re: The Warlock Problem

Post by TheCacklackian »

Ephemeralis wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:05 am
  • Increase Warlock's stealth cap to 525. With glyph augmentation, this is 600 stealth. Orb and cloak bonuses should do the rest.
Mechanically, I think that solo warlocks are or were extremely stealth reliant which, in my experience does not work very well in groups(grouped movement being so fast with risk scaling each room). I don't really think warlocks should have an increased stealth cap. In fact I'd go so far as to say with the exception of ranged combat, their skill caps are fine. I do however think warlocks should not be forced to spec into stealth for the ability to fight solo(again, familiar has made this better but even that has it's faults.)
Ephemeralis wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:05 am [*] Consider making channeled sorcery scale off 75% of someone's Sorcery or 100% of their Ranged Combat skill, whichever is higher. At 700 Sorcery, this gives them an effective level of 525 and does not require them to invest points in RC to achieve it. The fantasy of this also makes sense - controlling where the nether goes should be an act of sorcery, not an act of John Wick aiming prowess - that'd be a Nightblade thing, if anything. If you do anything, do this one.
I want this so bad. I know we'll probably not get it, but I want it. I don't even think it's unbalanced given the massive pain it is to practice sorcery. I think that sorcery should at the least grant rerolls or a bonus to ranged attacks that caps out at an effective RC of 300(which should add to RC for an effective cap of 700 since it would require you get both skills to cap). As is, sorcery as a skill is not valuable passed second channel. It drains far to fast with too little benefit, aside from Shadow Familiar defense chance.
Ephemeralis wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:05 am [*] Consider lowering the energy drain for sorcery channel use. Anyone who wants to go the pure sorcery route finds themselves locked very quickly into cast->BT->ELE->repeat because you need both 100% BT uptime to not explode in solo fights and you REQUIRE the energy income from ELE to not pass out and die after a minute and a half of combat. Managing it is gruesome and it only gets worse the more channels you use.
One of my biggest gripes with warlock, combat variety. In combat there are basically 2 rotations. BT>cast>ELE for damage, and BT>ELE>cast for sustain. I'm not sure how it is for other classes, but this gets repetitive. And every time I come back from a hiatus, I see myself fall back into the same 2 combos because there's not much else worth doing during combat.

Ephemeralis wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:05 am
  • Set your familiar to guard someone in your group instead of you.
I second this idea, though I think that you should also be able to be guarded by both your Familiar and another player at the same time.
Ephemeralis wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:05 am [*] Talk through your familiar and teleport it to the location of someone you have a blood vial of, potentially allow it to deliver/ferry single small items this way.
I don't think talking through your familiar, or having it carry items via teleportation make much sense thematically, I think that familiar message making a return would be neat, but no form of transporting items this way.
Ephemeralis wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:05 am [*] Construct a golem shell through some other means and have your familiar inhabit it as a combat companion
I hear that we're not likely to get combat companions, which is a shame. I was so excited for necromancy to make its way here.
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Rastaban
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Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:42 pm

Re: The Warlock Problem

Post by Rastaban »

There are so many good ideas in these posts, and I hope some will come to fruition soon! I would enjoy having Familiar Message once again. Such a way to use the familiar for something outside combat. And to let it guard another, this I love.
I hear that we're not likely to get combat companions, which is a shame. I was so excited for necromancy to make its way here.
There is good news, this is a quote from a voice chat:
Q: I'm not sure if it's an appropriate question for this specific chat, but I heard somewhere that warlocks were unlikely to get animation or necromancy as an ability in the future, is that true? I would be sad if this is the case, even if they aren't strong I'd still love to have them.
A: Warlocks will definitely be getting animates. They might have more limitations than they did in the Other Game, but they will definitely be getting animates, including the version that never got put into Clok, which is Gollums.
I am crosspost from the other thread to this one to focus on Warlocks:
Rias wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:59 am - An ability like Cryosorcerous Disc, but without the cryo part because that isn't a thing here for Warlocks. Acts as a shield block roll when channeling sorcery. Benefits from Melee/Ranged and the Shield Use skill just like any other shield. Has some unique flavor text when blocking to ensure people are envisioning the sorcerous disc instead of a held shield.
- Some sort of Quickchannel ability that can be used to reduce the time to open sorcery channels and can be taken twice, which then unlocks ...
- Some kind of "reflexive channeling" that can be used to automatically open channels and thus their associated effects in certain situations, such as, say, an incoming blockable attack and the Disc block ability.
I would note, we have the Quickchannel now, and thank you so very much for it! Can I hope for the Disc Block and Reflexive Channel soon? I would be so grateful.

Here I will also take the time to say this: There are so many abilities for Warlocks that do not take Sorcery skill:
  • Binding Tendril
    Essence Leech
    Essence Transfer
    Soul Detection
All of these, and our raw cast which should be our basic, Sorcery Skill does nothing for! So a Warlock, who will be an expert in Sorcery, has these skills which their expertise has no effect with. I understand, we do not want Sorcery skill to be a warrior skill, making sorcerers warriors with just Sorcery skill. But please, let us use some of our Sorcery skill for something for these. What about this:

Ability: Sorcerous Guiding, 3 ranks
Description: Through your connection to nether you may guide your spells as they fly. Use 25% Sorcery skill to your aiming sorcerous attacks per rank.

As said by Ephemeralis this will give 525 cap. Much lower than any warrior, lower than ranger or Bard, only 25 more than Rogue and treasure hunter. Is this too much to ask? Consider how we are given ranged powers, but we must train something scholars have no expectation for, ranged combat, to use. In my proposals like this one in the past I have discovered other cases of this sort of thing. Woodcutting skill, makes you attack better with an axe. Mining skill, makes you attack better with a pick. Why not sorcery skill, makes you attack better with sorcery? And the graceful dodge, cunning dodge, so on for defense, also use non warrior skills for combat purpose. These kind of substitutes are not unheard of. Will 3 ability slots be enough to make it acceptable for Warlocks?
Dennis
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am

Re: The Warlock Problem

Post by Dennis »

I've been a warlock for four days and I haven't used sorcery. That's because often times, pulling the trigger on my crossbow or hurling a javelin is a superior choice over using my sorcerous might. I don't have a problem with this per-se, but that's because I understood its limitations from prior experience.

Warlocks are really cool if you shed the previous experience and shell of the Rook Parlour and you come in from a different angle.

I want to approach this from a scholarly approach - how can we utilize this to enhance our ability or debilitate foes? And moreso, what can I do with this when I'm not trying to murder people.
On the aspects of non-combat warlocking there is little application of sorcery. Which, to be fair, it is an amorphous blob of acid with a mind of its own, so what applications could there be?
Honestly, this one's going to sound weird but we've already had nethertouched salt. I'd love to see sorcery influences on cooking. Acids are used to enhance flavor or preserve things - why can't judicious use of sorcery be manipulated to kill off bacteria on cheese, making it last longer and have more potent flavors? If it's about influencing willpower, it's like teaching a dog to sit or not eat a treat until it's been given the command to.

Now back to combat, I see sorcery as an extension of the concepts of paranormal - after all, aren't nethrim shades very much so spirits?

I'd love to see more of this explored in warlock sorcery. As the resident "Oops I haunted again" expert of the days of yore, I would love to see more of the paranormal abilities explored! And I am excited for the day that gollums and animates join the fray.

In so far as the incorporeal, I would love to tap into the occult here.
Poltergeistic abilities, like moving the familiar into the body of an object that rapidly begins to degrade but manipulates itself like it's been wielded by something.
Doppelganger - clone yourself, confusing enemies and causing the occasional mis-target into thin air. A form of misty apparitions, likewise!
Hauntings - with the cold grips of deathly hands or influences that affect your perception of things. Even things like the perception of temperatures - Oh god, my weapon is red-hot burning! Better drop it! But it's not, actually. Paranormal activity that induces paranoia and effects your ability to perceive things as safe or dangerous.


Now, that's not to say I don't agree with some of the observations above. I'm not the target audience here as a majority non-sorcerer sorcerer.

On shadow familiar attaching/detaching, it's a high energy cost as well as the sanity cost. I do wish that this was changed because it's very weighty to have the familiar around and out. Maybe a higher sorcery will reduce this, but I haven't seen it yet.
On scholars not being as good as warriors at fighting, yeah. I think it's by intent, so limitations in that aspect as to be expected. I think rather than looking to increase our own rolls, I'd like to see us be more able to reduce the defense of the target which is much more impactful than a percentile increase on our end.
On sorcery damage on cast, It's about on par with a crossbow shot. Being able to influence this with phase manipulation or nether condensation would be nice. Being able to channel sorcery at something to wash it over with a barrage of unaimed nether would be interesting too. I'd love to just open the floodgates and drain my power tank at something to weaken its skin, maybe with a focus on destroying its armor or protective hide to decrease its defense values.
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