Nightblade First Impressions

Peerless warriors of varying types, from hulking armored dreadnoughts to stealthy light-footed nightblades.
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Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Nightblade First Impressions

Post by Acarin »

So I've been playing a nightblade for a little while now and just wanted to provide some general feedback and thoughts around the specialization. I've enjoyed the game so far, so no complaints here, but figured I would provide some thoughts on the play and overall abilities... along with a few suggestions (of course).

So to start, nightblades are described as lightly-armored fighters that sneak up on their prey, study their target, and deliver a calculated, often mortal, blow.
Basically, assassins or other stealth precision light weapon fighters that spend a while setting up strikes in hopes of a quick kill. My overall impression so far is that I'm not feeling that particular aspect of combat with a decent chunk of the abilities now. Heavier weapons seem to be more beneficial overall right now and result in faster kills. Stilettos were a really nice addition (and I use them) but clearly can't match the damage output of a heavier weapon and don't kill very quickly. The only advantage currently is that they enable more frequent chinks. Unless something is heavily armored though, I'm probably doing way more damage with a huge weapon that isn't really fitting into the intended style of nightblades (ambushing with a giant hammer is very effective but seems a bit clumsy and strange to me). Overall, it doesn't feel like their minor sorcery abilities fully fit either... right now they're just stealth boosts. So maybe on to abilities and then back to this:

I'm not going to give feedback on general abilities as I'm not planning to pick up most of them unless I have tons of spare ability points, but I did post on true strike tiering for specializations when I started.

Armor Chink: Great ability, especially with stilettos. The cooldown is very long though and it's difficult to use routinely. If you don't get a mortal blow (and chances are you won't), it's 30 seconds before you can use again. This is basically a hide, circle, attack, sweep, attack, rehide, circle before the next chink comes... which is fine in principle, but feels rather limiting. But the cooldown definitely feels noticeably limiting.

Combat Mobility - Looks great but I haven't tested it

Deft Recovery - Also looks great but I haven't yet tested it. I've been holding off because of the need to use it actively. I'm not sure if I'm quick enough to make it functional but will test it before I comment. Out of curiosity, has a passive chance of use been considered for this one?

Dirtkick - Love the skill, but it does seem a bit out of place. It's the only skill in the nightblade arsenal that requires artifice right now so seems like it would become limited in success at higher levels without a very steep skill point investment (nightblades are stretched to begin with). It feels very rogue/marauder but I just have some trouble reconciling it with the combat style. I'm not against it and do like the skill. The stagger is nice. The decrease in perception is nice. It gives an easy hide. It just feels a bit like something that was created for another specialization or guild then passed to nightblades because, hey, why not? So what would I like to see on this one? Maybe replacement with an occasional passive (very low damage) blast of sorcery to the eyes as a followup to a strike while channeling or an active skill that allows something similar (basically same/similar benefits but with a different style at the cost of energy from channeling... Rolls based on either melee or some combo of melee and artifice maybe. Maybe damage or stagger duration based on sorcery? See also: comment on shadowcloak.

Flip - I can't bring myself to pick up this ability. It looks amazing with the second tier for duelists and bards but the benefit for nightblades seems lower considering that ranges aren't a part of the game and breaking combat engagement to hide is easy and already enabled by tumble. Maybe I'm missing something here. I'm going to pick it up eventually. I hope for a pleasant surprise and that I'm just currently underestimating.

Glyph: `iquaj` (Blur)
Glyph: `terlu` (Muffle)
Glyph: `uyto` (Soundpulling)
I have picked up glyphs or occult diagrams because of the huge ability point investment so looking forward to those changes in arcana and glyphs potentially not being their own separate abilities.

Shadow Cloak
Shadow cloak has always been one of my favorite abilities. I don't have any real comments about it except that the sorcery cap for nightblades allows a relatively short duration on it. Overall, great skill. I just usually miss when it drops (which is on me). Some additional nightblade specific use for the cloak could be interesting and potentially motivating... this could maybe be tied back to a reworked dirtkick equivalent. When active, maybe a second tier ability specific for nightblades would be an active "flare" of cloak, briefly covering an opponent's eyes in tendrils/nether sheets from the cloak to stagger and lower perception.

Shadow Orb
In Clok, this thing always gave you away by following you everywhere. I do like that it's fixed here so nicely done. Now you just know that a nightblade or sorceror has been in the room recently. It's great to have but not much motivation right now to bring a channel up (or bring up for purposes other than just renewing shadow cloak) to use. That said, the short duration and fixed location make it less likely to be used (although great for very special occassions).

Sorcerous Channeling
It's sorcery! What can I say...

Sweep
Great skill (one of the most useful in combat) and love that it can be used from hiding (Thanks, Rias). Unfortunately, you can't really use it from hiding well as an ambush since opponents stand before the rt is over. Basically, you have to be in active combat to use this as a nightblade which moves a bit away from the tactic of taking your time to study an opponent and set up attacks. I'd suggest a tier 2 ability (maybe for nightblades and possibily duelists if they're supposed to be ambushers) to increase stagger duration or surprise duration from an ambush (so that you can try to get an attack in before they stand or rehide). Also, I'm not sure that surprise rerolls or other tactics adjustments are being applied here. I may not know enough about mechanics here so maybe they shouldn't... will test this more.

Tactics: Nightblade
Thought I wouldn't like it but i actually love it. It does force us to disengage quickly with some nice bonuses at low risk. My only comment would be that the remaining arsenal of skills does not support fast kills, so hoping abilities eventually catch up with the tactic.

Tumble
First ability. Great ability. No changes. I would love to understand how acrobatics effects it though (if at all).

Urban Stealth
I don't have it yet. I keep wanting to get it but it may be less practical right now as I've heard there are very few urban hunting areas. I do wonder why nightblades have access to urban stealth over wilderness stealth or something like footpad. Are they intended to be urban hunters? It tangentially makes sense but not sure I entirely understand the vision here (stealth boosts are important for nightblades but does Urban Stealth make the most sense... I'm still undecided and hope some additional lore or future events or guild tasks might shed some light on this)?

So overall, I think there are a lot of great nightblade abilities. They mostly make sense but sometimes feel a bit spread out to me. There are two major ability gaps that I see right now:
Sorcery - As hybrid sorcery users, I'm not entirely understanding the role of sorcery in their combat. They can channel and raw cast sorcery but abilities aren't really a true caster and can likely never pick up enough channels to make this really effective. Ranged combat is also a huge investment. I could see a very specific sniping build doing this maybe but I'm assuming it's probably not the real intent here. So let's disregard raw casts. That leaves channeling ability investment to learn 2 abilities, shadow cloak and shadow orb. So basically, all sorcery is aimed at stealth augmentations right now instead of actual combat. I think some sorcerous augmentation of combat would be quite interesting. A few ideas would be those presented under dirtkick/shadow cloak. It would be nice if there was a benefit to channeling though (given the energy cost). A few ideas would be coating small blades in nether during an active channel to increase damage (night blades), being able to "inject nether" on a successful pierce or puncture strike while channeling for a delayed damage burst (additional damage based on roll a few seconds after the initial strike), or cool a blade in advance with nether to inflict a little extra cold damage. Of course, these abilities would be dependent on using non-ferrous weapons and might cause them to degrade a little faster? Short range nether blasts as an added followup attack could be very cool as well. Maybe even a toned down melee version of binding tendrils as followup (nether webbing)?

Combat - The description of nightblades is again "lightly-armored fighters that sneak up on their prey, study their target, and deliver a calculated, often mortal, blow." We can definitely sneak up, and nightblade tactics and stalk carry us a little ways toward this goal. I'm still not getting the clear impression that I'm studying my target or delivering calculated, often mortal, blows above what any other ambusher would be capable of (tactics aside since the extra rerolls are nice). So two gaps here: studying and mortal blows
Studying: A specific study opponent for weaknesses ability seems way too close to Clok but a modified/unique implementation could be interesting. Observing an opponent prevents you from attacking or using active combat abilities for 10 seconds. During this time, you watch the way the opponent moves and gain 1 balance per second. In addition, a random body part will be presented as a weakness, for example: "You notice that the laborer has a slight limp in his left leg". Targeting that weak point after would result in a significantly increased chance of a mortal wound (if possible on that location), even on lower rolls, or allow for a massive damage increase if the location would not allow it.
Mortal blows: Precision strike (to be used following observing). Target the location that came up while observing at the cost of the balance that was accumulated while observing. A successful strike either delivers a mortal blow (at a lower threshold of damage) or increased damage (and maybe knockdown/stagger). The strike results in double the increase in risk as a normal attack (so instant penalty if you miss).
Another alternative idea would be that some sort of additional observation skill would increase rerolls (only) for a followup ability based on time spent observed. If the difference between your rerolls and their rerolls reaches a certain value (like 6 or 8), you would deliver a mortal blow on the strike. If you don't meet the requirement, it would just deliver a normal hit. This means that you would basically spend time stalking and increasing rerolls to try for a mortal blow. If you failed, you'd lose all of your rerolls, have to de-risk for a bit and go through the process again. Small precision weapons might be more effective too so a large weapon would require a reroll difference of 20 to gain the mortal hit increase while a stiletto or dagger might only require a difference of 6.

Just my thoughts and suggestions so far. I'll post more as I continue to test. Again, enjoying the game so far.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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Rias
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Re: Nightblade First Impressions

Post by Rias »

Thanks for a very useful feedback post. I'll write more later when I have the time, but I wanted to say that Nightblades aren't quite where I want them to be yet. They definitely don't yet have that punch they need with a calculated ambush attack for big mortality chances that is the whole idea of them. You've made some good suggestions, some aligning with the ideas I've had planned and some being good new suggestions.

I love feedback posts like this, and this gets me more excited to get Nightblades to the point they can feel in their groove.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Nightblade First Impressions

Post by Acarin »

Thanks Rias. Glad you find it useful and excited to hear more about what you're planning!

I had one additional thought around flip that I wanted to post before I forget. Maybe a second tier for nightblades would be an attempt to flip away and duck under cover (hide). Not too sure about it since one would have to be able to deactivate it (and not sure how rt would be handled) but it would be an interesting "vanish" alternative that's less ridiculous and passive.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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Karjus
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Re: Nightblade First Impressions

Post by Karjus »

Really cool write up.

I totally agree on big weapons being too good. Whether that means damage needs leveling a bit more, or simply having more options to be done with small weapons (Not a fan, I hated that about Clok. All the cool abilities/neat stuff for small weapons instead of available via base mechanics. Makes small weapons feel super cool/flashy, and big ones while effective not much of the cool stuff can be done with them. Generalization of course)

Personally, I don't think an engagement system would be terrible for Cogg and you could throw in a pressed status instead of just "Melee". Have it so small weapons really shine there, but big weapons don't. Then you get to throw in mechanics/abilities for classes to get into/out of that. "Shove", "Bodyslam", "Duck and dive" whatever! It then also might make ranged a bit more desirable than it is now.
- Karjus

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