Guardian feedback and suggestions

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Dennis
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Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by Dennis »

I' decided to pick up guardian as a subclass because defense based builds are fantastic, and it seems under-tested. When I think of a guardian, I think of someone who is perceptive and controlling the flow of battle through defensive maneuvers.

Overall the class is in a place that is viable but it lacks a cultural identity that is evident with classes like nightblade and dreadnaught. Overall, warriors are very well put together and I enjoy the tactical approach of fighting.

My build order was to take the following:
Tactics: Guardian, Shield Bash, Combat Readiness, Shield Charge, Armor Deflection, Stability, Side-by-Side, Stance: Stonewall

Guardian specific abilities review:

Tactics Guardian was a fantastic first ability to take, as I was able to take the shield and utilize it profoundly in counterattacks. Likely the most iconic ability of the subclass, it helps me to feel like a shield using badass. The counterattack being from the shield helps greatly to make this point clear. Overall, it does a fantastic job of disrupting the flow of combat passively. I have not experienced group combat yet to review anything for intercepting attacks.

Shield Bash: This likely shine in a place where you're fighting with an ally by your side. The stagger is temporary and you're largely unable to take advantage of the windows provided by the bash, but it's a welcome reprieve while cooldowns are ticking down. The damage is suitably offensive without being overtly lethal with exception of lucky blows to weak points, and a chance to knock down on a powerful strike is nice.

Shield Charge: From what I can tell, it's a shield specific version of the tackle ability. perks: applies shield use skill to your roll in addition to your melee combat skill. This is my main method of disabling an enemy long enough to get a blow in, overall a fantastic ability.

Armor Deflection: While on paper, a 40% chance to reduce damage by 50% to hit locations covered by heavy armor sounds good I don't see this proc when it does, so it's a largely unnoticed ability. A visible reminder that this is happened would be nice.

I'd probably say the place where Guardians lack the feeling of being an adept defender is not in martial combat, but rather that they lack mental defense support with exception of a higher meditation cap. While this enemy type doesn't exist in bulk at the moment, enemies that trigger 'fear' effects are some of the most debilitating ones in my experience. Fear has caused effects ranging from involuntary disarmament to panicked fleeing, and these status ailments are extremely disruptive. As such, a resistance to fear would likely be something that I could see trained for a subclass dedicated to defense, as it would help with staying in control of the situation. To that end, some ability suggestions below:

Suggestions:

Fearlessness: a short duration self buff scaling with meditation or a channeled form, the guardian with fearlessness will not involuntarily flee from combat, even in a life threatening situation.

Stunned Manuevers: The guardian attempts to break out of a stun or an incapacitating effect through force of will and training.

Strong Grip: While disarmament isn't a factor at the current time, that isn't to say that it will always be the case. To that end, a resistance to disarming would be a good ability for a guardian type ability.

Melee Endurance: A flaw of being an intercepter or defender is that your energy drains significantly faster purely through intercepting attacks. An ability that reduces energy drain on incoming attacks would help to increase longevity.

Blindfighting: Sight is just one sense, it's possible to perceive danger with your other senses (including the 6th!) a benefit to fighting unseen attackers would be an impressive, likely capstone, feat.

Multi-opponent fighting: Looking again at the risk factors a guardian has in being face-to-face with multiple incoming attackers, I'm unsure if there are any reductions to rolls in being outnumbered, but a higher threshold for same such would be nice.
Last edited by Dennis on Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nobody
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Re: Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by nobody »

I'd also suggest a channeled ability (like inner strength or footpad) that works to pushdown offense rerolls against the guardian and a single individual the guardian is specifically guarding.
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Karjus
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Re: Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by Karjus »

I'd kind of like to see something like fearlessness but make it almost offense based and accessible by berserkers and dreadnoughts. Call it impetuous or something, and while the bonus scales a little with meditation, the bonus is actually larger the more roundtime you're in and possibly allow a counter attack (be it punch or shield) to also proc a larger bonus that quickly diminishes. The bonuses don't stack. Get whichever would be largest
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Lexx416
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Re: Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by Lexx416 »

It'd be cool if Guardians had a channel ability that let them (for a duration of 10-X seconds, maybe capping at 30 or 40 seconds, feeding off of shield use and meditation for the bonus duration) grip a 1.5h weapon in both hands while using a shield. Increase energy costs on attacks a little, but otherwise let the weapon/shield function as normal.
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Dennis
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Re: Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by Dennis »

I was talking about guardians recently and I wanted to update my feedback post.

I think I've mentioned it before, but as so far as the defensive aspects of the guardian subclass, they are easily overwhelmed by the odds and unlike existing classes, they can't break the balance of odds easily. Where a berserker or dreadnought can bring a foe or two down to even the odds, a guardian lacks any power-changing attacks to even out the odds. I was in a long fight with 4vs4 dusklamp situation with both non warriors and other allied warriors. Because abilities are slinking past guard, I was intercepting attacks on allies but the abilities were still striking my allies. In addition I was easily staggered into a comatose situation for 30 or odd seconds where I could do nothing, even when I circle or stonewall myself to try to bring my balance up.

To prevent a situation where a guardian fails to perform his core duty, granting them abilities to break out of a stagger and having more balance recovery options would give them a lot more power to play in their arena.
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Teri
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Re: Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by Teri »

I know currently only adventurers get skill caps above 400 of perception, but I was pondering a guardian may benefit from a higher skill cap for the sake of well... guarding others better. Or potentially a passive ability/tactical observation to offset the effects of an ambush on group members.
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Teri
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Re: Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by Teri »

Credit to Kaiju for this one. Watchful Eye: Combines the perception of the guardian and the person they are guarding.
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Talyn
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Re: Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by Talyn »

So, I'm going to just go ahead and write my feedback. I made a Guardian. I've honestly been enjoying him but not because of his class more so his RP. I think I've got a few good laughs from people. He's heartwarming and goofy, but that's not what this post is about. This post is about my feedback on Guardians. Granted my guardian is only level 6 so I can't say I've done everything there is to be a guardian, so why am I writing this post? Well, in truth at level 6 I do actually in fact feel like I've done the guardian experience in terms of abilities, sure there are a few more abilities I wish to try out but when it comes to combat and group play I have the abilities I think is needed and make a guardian. Which I'll toss down below.

You know the following abilities:

Combat Readiness
Shield Bash
Shield Charge
Side by Side
Tactics: Guardian

Note I do not have Stability or Stance: Stonewall, both abilities I think will greatly help my playthrough with the guardian class, but in a nutshell, I personally think the abilities up above make/break the guardian.

Combat Readiness gives you that 5 balance to start so you always can initiate combat with either a shield bash or shield charge. Depending on if you're in a group which I was I like to start with shield charge. This ability...is strange to me. It's just tackle but with 1 more advantage reroll. From the helpfile and what I roll it's the exact same as Tackle, or well very similar the only difference is shield charge gives an extra -5 balance on hit to the enemy and 1 additional reroll. Shield bash on the other hand is such a godsend for a Guardian. It is so much fun because even if you don't roll well you still stagger them, and if you roll at 75% or greater you will knock them down on top of a LOT of damage. However, that's it for a guardian.

Solo is a bit different, Solo I will wait for the mob to attack me where I block, counter attack, which staggers the enemy, and then shield bash which again will stagger and/or knock them down. Giving me a much better chance to attack them with the amount of disadvantage rerolls they get on their defense rolls.

Now, because of being so low level I don't have a lot of meditation yet, nor have I fought against anything with fear/occult mind powers/bard words at all, but I'm still weary of the 300 meditation. It's a lot but in truth when it comes to combat rerolls are everything. You could have 700 vs 200 and if you get rerolls or disadvantage rolls for offense/defense that greatly effects how well or bad you'll do. If a Guardian is suppose to be this heavily armored defender that doesn't fear as easily. I think something that gives maybe 1 additional reroll towards mind/fear powers would help them. In group play, I'm still trying to think of what makes a guardian useful. They protect people and sure I wasn't in a group of the same skill range as me or the mobs but I felt like I was just in the back field cheering them on while I wait for side-by-side to proc, or get lucky with a shield bash. I never got to do my counter attack, I was mostly there to knock them down and wait for them to kill it. Offensively, guardians are interesting, they're not a duelist or a nightblade for sure but if I choose between a berserker or a guardian. A berserker is more define (we know this already)


What I would like:
An ability that gives 1 reroll versus all mind powers, Bard words, fear, and anything if a guardian is suppose to have a bit more mental resolve then others this would make them stand out more against enemy bards.
Kaiju had a really interesting idea with the having a better chance to see stealthed people while guarding or something not sure how to balance it out yet but that would be neat.
I think adding Flurry to them would be interesting. Getting to additional hits in would greatly help.
Different shields doing different things. This is again another gray area for me. I know all shields get 1 reroll and morale rolls, shields already are pretty good low level at least. I do think kite/heater shields should have more rerolls to block than a buckler.
If a guardian is meant to be the defensive one of the group the literal "Guardian" I think Protector's Vow from the other game would be useful, or maybe I'm thinking of another one where if the Guardian is leading the group they have a passive chance to intercept attacks, maybe make this a stance they could toggle that way low level guardians don't get stomped into the dirt.

I'm sorry if this feedback isn't helpful, I might have more to write once he's higher level but I just wanted to throw out my thoughts on what I felt so far.
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Talyn
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Re: Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by Talyn »

I've been trying to think of more things about Guardians to make them feel special in their own way, and this ability came to my mind. It would give them a resource to work within combat.

Virtue of Courage :

Virtue of Courage would give them the resource called Aegis, which could go from 0 - 25 (Much like Fury). However, the only way to gain Aegis is by successfully blocking attacks and intercepting attacks. (Goal of a guardian is to keep people safe right?)

Now what does Aegis do? This part has me stumped, there's a few ideas I have for this and that would be gives blocking rerolls and while I don't know what the rolls or chances are to intercept attacks while guarding people potentially could even assist with that. I also think aegis could be used as some sort of resource for attacks. That way it becomes a push and pull system, a guardian could simply build up their aegis and be a monster of a defender or use that shield to help attack but it lessens their chance of defending. Granted, this is just as suggestion and wouldn't mind hearing other ideas.

An attack that could work with Aegis could be something like Clear out. Clear out could simply be a cleaving blow like attack but uses a shield instead of the weapon. It would use up. 10 Aegis to use to make a melee attack vs a Melee defending roll to potentially hit two targets in a sweeping crush damage type attack, if the melee attack rolls are with 75% or higher it could knock down like a shield bash. I could see how this might in theory snowball into over powered set ups so again. Open to suggestions. Hopefully this sounds cool and not a lot of babbling.
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Frisbee
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Re: Guardian feedback and suggestions

Post by Frisbee »

I've never actually had an arcanist who got passed level 3, so what I'm suggesting may be a tiny bit overpowered. Still, I thought it'd be a good thing to bring it up.

Always thought it would be nice if guardians could get the Dorun glyph, somehow. I think it suits them, and it sounds like it could give them a little boost. Maybe put a plate inside the chapel and let only guardians study it?
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