Did Alorin's argument make sense?

The harnessing and manipulation of nether.
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Marcuson
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Did Alorin's argument make sense?

Post by Marcuson »

In the voicechat notes for November 12th, Rias said,
Even the people who were clearly planning to move factions seemed to think Alorin sounded pretty crazy and were moving -despite- her, not -because- of her.
I was surprised to hear that. Both in and out of character, I thought Alorin had a really good argument. I'd like to ramble a bit on why that is.

First, let's consider Alorin's words:
Alorin says, "The nether is a force that could be the Lost Lands' salvation. Yes, it can be dangerous - but just like dangerous fire, nether can also be used for the good of mankind. Nobody in Caer Ioan wishes for the entirey of the Lost Lands to be completely altered beyond recognition by the nether. However, with the right amount of control, it can enhance man, beast, plant, and the land itself. More importantly, it can protect us from other more malevolent forces - specifically, that of the resen infestation. Have you ever heard of infested nethrim, or infestation afflicting nethertouched men or beasts? It cannot happen. The nether prevents any infestation from the resen. Between the two great powers rapidly and irrevocably altering our world - the nether and the resen - the nether is the clear preference. Unlike the resen which seeks to completely corrupt, dominate, and replace anything it touches, the nether can meld and transform - often enhance - without destroying what it affects. It can be controlled, honed, and even channeled for countless beneficial purposes."

Alorin says, "The resen infestation is by far the greatest threat to the Lost Lands. It is a vile corrupting fungus that robs man and beast of their wills, withers and replaces plantlife, and befouls the very air and even the climate of the land. The people of Caer Ioan seek to fight this destructive force that threatens to corrupt our world, but we can't hope to achieve victory without adapting in some way. Those with the canim condition are blessed with immunity to the effects of the spores, but the canim condition is still not well-understood, nor do we know what causes it. A much more achievable adaptation that we can actively induce is to become Nethertouched, which also prevents resen-infestation."
TL;DR: The essential premise of Alorin's argument is that resen is the greatest threat to the Lost Lands, and since people know how to control the nether, it's better to use what we know about the nether to contain the resen.

As far as I can tell, it is 100% absolutely true that resen is more dangerous than nether, and our characters know it. Most characters don't wear face-masks while fighting nethrim; no one is worried that killing nethrim will turn them into a nethrim. In fighting nethrim, characters need only concern themselves with straight-up combat. In contrast, consider all the extra concerns there are with fighting the infested. Characters wear face-masks and wash themselves, being worried about inhaling resen spores or carrying them on their clothes just by being near the infested, to say nothing of fighting them. There's no known cure for being infested. Consider this, too: without something to reanimate it, a nethrim corpse isn't really dangerous anymore; the corpse of an infested is absolutely still dangerous.

Containment is also different. Nethrim can't abide iron and fire, and both of those are easy for characters to acquire. You could theoretically, say, build an iron fence around an area. It'd take a lot of labor, but it'd be possible. How can the infested be contained? We know that they don't like the cold, but that's really dependent upon the weather. The only well-known method of generating cold (that our characters have access to) is through channeling nether, and even then, that's only sustainable for short periods of time. The infested can't be contained the same way that nethrim can be.

Is nether dangerous? You bet. And Alorin absolutely played down the dangers of nether; after all, plenty of people have been hurt or corrupted by it or lost their minds/souls/whatever as a result of it. But there are also dozens of schools and scholarly associations (just in the Lost Lands) whose sole occupation is studying nether. At the library, if they so choose, characters can receive formal training in making use of nether as a weapon. That's not something it's possible to say about the resen. Nobody knows how to control the resen, let alone treat it or undo its effects.

I mentioned earlier that this sounded like a good argument in-character as well. Here's what Dylan had to say about it:
[ESP-GRAY]: A vanilla entity begrudgingly admits, "I don't agree with or trust the folks who want to go puttin' nether into themselves, but if what that woman said is true - that bein' touched by nether means ya can't get the resen - then I reckon I do understand why folks would be willin' to take that risk in fightin' the resen. It's a choice born o' desperation. A bad choice, mind ya. But still a choice."

[ESP-GRAY]: A vanilla entity admits, "Ya see, I'm a coward. I only fight nethrim. And that's 'cause, in my heart o' hearts, I know resen is scarier."
It's a pretty complicated position for Dylan to take. As a result of some of his past experiences, he deeply distrusts sorcerers and nether, and he always goes out of his way to put down nethrim, but he's also willing to admit that Alorin had a point. By himself, Dylan personally would not have chosen to go to Caer Ioan - and certainly he would never choose to become nethertouched - but because he knew that his adopted daughter was unhappy living in Shadgard, he was ready to pack up and leave so that she wouldn't have to be alone. He had even cleaned out his room at the inn. (I'm not entirely sure how that's going to play out now, but not knowing is just part of the game!)

Sorry for the long, rambling post. Maybe I'm completely wrong about the whole nether-resen thing, but this is how I see it. I'd like to hear other perspectives on Alorin's argument.
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HeckTurtle
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Re: Did Alorin's argument make sense?

Post by HeckTurtle »

My perspective as a player was very similar, but my character's perspective was completely different from Dylan's. Florenza doesn't have any distrust toward sorcery or people who use it, though she does have a healthy wariness of nether itself and saw it as a matter of choosing between the lesser of two evils.

Alorin's arguments--not just the one regarding nether and the resen, but that one too--were actually the entire reason Florenza decided she wanted to move to Caer Ioan, though she did acknowledge Alorin was likely biased/trying to make CI look good. Until Alorin came around, I completely believed Florenza would be staying in Shadgard whenever NotShad came out and faction stuff started up. But things changed a bit. Very confused on where to take things after the recent news, because I understand this to mean living in Caer Ioan isn't going to be possible and it will instead be possible to gain standing with them as a more minor faction, but I guess it'll be more clear after more things come out IC. Off-topic thoughts, moving on:

OOCly, I thought Alorin had a very good argument. It made a lot of sense, because it's true that the resen is more dangerous than nether is, considering a lot less is known about resen than is known about nether, nether is easier to control compared to resen, etc. And it definitely seemed valid that people might want to decide to become nethertouched to protect their free will from being stolen by the resen. Becoming infested is really terrifying to think about, and it would certainly be tempting to make the sacrifices/take the risks involved in becoming nethertouched to be safe from that fate. (If a person didn't entirely distrust nether and was firm in their beliefs.) It's tempting for Florenza, too, because of her lack of total distrust for it. She places high value in her free will.

I don't know if this was really helpful at all, but. Here's to hoping it was.
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Maina
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Re: Did Alorin's argument make sense?

Post by Maina »

I was very disappointed to hear Rias say he thought those of us planning to go all thought she was crazy. I think that was a vocal minority.

I loved Alorin, and my character had fully bought into the propaganda (though didn't expect it to be perfect by any means). The logic fits, I think. It's made it fairly difficult to decide what to do next.
Ephemeralis
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Re: Did Alorin's argument make sense?

Post by Ephemeralis »

Much like the rest of you, my character felt similarly inspired by Alorin's message, especially regarding the dangers of the resen and the fact that some manipulations of the nether appear to be inoculating against it. That was an especially huge revelation to hear, and one that provided some serious weight towards becoming a member of CI just to better both research this fact and methods to deal with the resen alone. Seraline is both ideologically inclined and naive enough to believe Alorin in full on this, though OOCly it was especially obvious to note just how weighted her pitch was.

The limitations Rias mentioned in his VC notes are definitely very well founded from a gameplay design standpoint. While CI offered an intriguing counterpoint to Shadgardian life as a faction, the "pivot" with which it did that was too limited in scope to be enough for a full second faction, and would have limited the game to more or less a "nether bad" versus "nether good" axis of conflict. The Dominion is a far more compelling option and a much more organic choice for a widespread gamut of characters with various levels of beliefs and practices on a wide range of complications present in the Lost Lands. I think this aspect alone was what drove Rias and the staff to reconsider the place of CI as the alternate faction, and that they were ultimately very right to do so.

I expect CI to serve a fairly important role in the exploration of sorcery going forward all the same. I am now left wondering how in the world nethertouched people are going to manage living in either Shadgard or the Dominion, though.
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nobody
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Re: Did Alorin's argument make sense?

Post by nobody »

my character wrote:"Can you imagine what would remain of the books here if this place fell to the resen? We have only begun to unravel the mysteries of old Aetgard, and there wouldn't be a volume left uncorrupted by mold and fungus."
Clearly I need to be using think more. I found the argument persuasive as well. That being said, I agree that the conflict between Caer Ioan and Shadgard mostly seemed like it would be competition without animosity - they'd rather leave each other alone if they can get what they need to get by. Mistral Lake/The Dominion vs Shadgard though is definitely a more obvious conflict. And I've seen mention by some that they wanted to leave Shadgard but don't want to join the Dominion. I get that, but doesn't having to chose between two places you don't want capture the intended theme of the Lost Lands so well?
Howard
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Re: Did Alorin's argument make sense?

Post by Howard »

I really like the argument as presented. History (and not a small amount of current events) involves choosing the lesser of two evils, or using something distasteful to combat something worse. Some folks disagree on what is "less" problematic, which is interesting.

That being said, I am very very excited about the Mistral angle. I've always found it fascinating, and it adds another layer to the world. After all, history, (and not a small amount of current events), involves the actual or assumed conflict between freedom-at-a-cost and control-for-the-good. This seems to be a more accessible version of conflict to me, as it doesn't automatically force those using the "small evil for great benefit" argument to tap into something that is easily believed to be evil.

Put another way, alliance with nether, or being nether-touched, will probably be presumed to be de facto evil. It's not, but that's how, based on centuries of tropes, the stance would be believed. Taking that (at least partially) out of the picture gives depth and layers of interpretation, with penumbras of meaning in each action. This is something that Rias and their team have always been supremely talented at creating, and I am exciting.

I'm a music nerd. There are some bands that release new records and I judge each record individually. And there are some bands for whom I will buy anything they release because I trust I'll like, or at least respect, their output. Rias and their team is one of those latter types of bands. Whatever they release, I'm excited to partake.
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Zombilicious
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Re: Did Alorin's argument make sense?

Post by Zombilicious »

I enjoyed Alorin's argument, though Nether also being an incredibly dangerous force meant that naturally my characters felt she was off her rocker. I think it would suit certain others of my characters (for instance, a Warlock) to be more in-tune with the ideas found in Caer Ioan; I hardly think they were bad ideas, but to embrace the Nether and want to embrace the Nether after you've been told how dangerous it is probably leaves a lot of eyebrows raised at the end of the day.
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