Offensive Casting

Discussion about the occult and arcana in general. (Don't call it "magic" if you want to be taken seriously by scholars.)
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Rastaban
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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Rastaban » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:13 pm

Yes, I am aware of non combat. I would like to try this. My character continues to study many dangerous places and would like to not be helpless. He will not march to war, but if cornered, I would like him to know how to use his sorcery in his defense. I believe using magic in dangerous situations should not only be possible with a physical training program. I have suggested it be weaker than those who do. Not a war hero, just some self defense.

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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Dennis » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:12 am

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=435&p=1427

Primarily highlighting Rias's response here from Nov 30, 2018 12:13 am:
Anyway ... I'll get off my soap box now and say that yes, there will probably be a way for magic users to defend themselves in dangerous situations without using conventional weapons/shields and their related skills, but will still require extra skill investment beyond just a single magic skill they would have been investing in already anyway. And it probably won't be quite as effective as the more dedicated-combatant conventional methods, overall.
When he had posted that in 2018, dodge was only given by melee skill. As seen here,
"First of all, 75% of a character's Ranged Combat skill may now apply to Dodge rolls, just as is the case with Melee Combat. The greater of one's Melee- or Ranged-based numbers will be applied (they don't stack with each other)."
As you need to take ranged skill to effectively throw sorcery bolts, you already will have some level of defense as of June 20th last year. So technically he has already accomplished the expectation. :)

Back to the topic, though.

Ranged is not necessarily a 'physical combat skill'. Conceptually, this is what the skill says
"General skill at ranged combat with any attack, both offense and defense. Some weapon types may be less effective without specialization, such as slings."
Calling it 'physical ranged combat is picking specifically one facet of the skill. It also determines things like your precision at throwing ranged magic attacks, which is exactly what mental calculations for precision is. I believe combat is addressed with general skill here for simplicity sake and dividing the skill up sounds like the opposite of that.

But I like to play from both sides of the coin, so here are my two perspectives to share here.

The take it as it is perspective: If it helps you mentally be prepared to not be yoda, just don't think of Ranged Combat as a physical feat of prowess. Yes, here in COGG Ranged Combat is a catchall that also encapsulates the ability to dodge, throw a dagger, or fire a bow; just don't do any of those things. I think splitting off an entirely separate but effectively equal defensive skill stat seems like excess bloat to me. I think as far as flavor goes, you can certainly think that your character is avoiding blows in the manner as described, without necessarily needing to resort to a whole new set of skills. Setting up a whole new set of calculations to account for a second set of skills that do the same thing as the first but worse just feels like asking for trouble; if it does get put through, you're going to have people asking for it to be buffed to be in line with regular ranged combat, I guarantee that within 2 years down the line people will be heckling for mental calculations to be equivalent to ranged combat, and no amount of telling them 'it is what it is' is going to satisfy them. I imagine that implementation would be a lot of work taken from other content, and that more skills to finagle with will bloat up any kind of combat changes that could potentially occur. Ability-wise, actually, there is already the arcana based ability warding sphere, a barrier that can block incoming attacks that arcanists gain access to. It's a boost to dodge, block, and parry against most incoming attacks. Not sure how it compares to actual skill.

The 'support your fellow book nerds' perspective: Having a separate skill set that has its own separate mental-based defense roll system for magic might be cool, but it mostly feels like you're asking for showing different flavor text. Maybe we can have dodging affixed with special flavor text for scholars! E.g. having skill in sorcery causes your dodge to trigger special flavor text. Sounds verbose though. The best of both worlds.

I'm always for more abilities though.
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Rias
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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Rias » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:59 am

It sounds like this ultimately comes down to flavor, and I get it. Cryosorcerous Disc was added in The Other Game for exactly this situation, so I understood it then and I understand it now. That said, I don't think I want to add any new skills for it. I think a good first couple of steps would be:

- An ability like Cryosorcerous Disc, but without the cryo part because that isn't a thing here for Warlocks. Acts as a shield block roll when channeling sorcery. Benefits from Melee/Ranged and the Shield Use skill just like any other shield. Has some unique flavor text when blocking to ensure people are envisioning the sorcerous disc instead of a held shield.
- Some sort of Quickchannel ability that can be used to reduce the time to open sorcery channels and can be taken twice, which then unlocks ...
- Some kind of "reflexive channeling" that can be used to automatically open channels and thus their associated effects in certain situations, such as, say, an incoming blockable attack and the Disc block ability.

That covers the blocking part. Unblockable attacks are still going to have you "Yoda"-ing around with your Dodge skill, though those types of attacks are relatively few. I'll mull over the idea of deceptive distractions/illusions substituting for dodge. Might make for a neat Arcana glyph that is largely for flavor for situations like this.

For offense, I think it's good to think of Ranged Combat training in your character's case being simply more about the marksmanship part and less about defensive dodging and whatnot. That said, I may consider a lesser substitution ability for Warlocks that takes a smaller portion of some other scholarly skills and applies it to sorcery casts. Like the mentioned Graceful Dodge does with applying some Dancing or Acrobatics to dodge rolls. Capping at (but not being based on) some percentage of Sorcery skill. I'll think it over a bit more.

Acarin
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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Acarin » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:19 am

So I know this has been asked many times but... can nether actually take a solid form? I was under the impression that it could not so a sorcerous shield seems like it would not be possible. Maybe an arcana "force shield" similar to warding sphere but localized over a smaller area?

The idea of illusions/distractions is interesting but it wouldn't be dodging... and seems like someone would have to fail a mental or perception check to be fooled and have it impact their attack so I don't see how this could be implemented as a dodge equivalent (as it would actually be more of an attack).
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

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Lexx416
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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Lexx416 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:58 am

Rias wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:59 am
That said, I may consider a lesser substitution ability for Warlocks that takes a smaller portion of some other scholarly skills and applies it to sorcery casts. Like the mentioned Graceful Dodge does with applying some Dancing or Acrobatics to dodge rolls. Capping at (but not being based on) some percentage of Sorcery skill. I'll think it over a bit more.
Something like an upgrade to or more advanced version of Shadow Cloak might work for a defensive measure for Warlocks - lending some amount of autonomy to the cloak, so that it actively tries to ward off or block attacks, perhaps with the potential to cause a little nether damage in return (though ferrous weapons would probably be a way around this).

For Arcanists, they already have Dorun, but a glyph that allows for something similar to a blur or mirror image that carries a miss chance to act as a kind of dodge replacement. Something that, similar to Shaol, permanently eats up a portion of energy until the effect goes off, leading to a lowered energy cap.


I'm not, overall, a fan of allowing for offensive capability to be substituted. I think being able to defend one's self against minor dangers through scholarly training is pretty reasonable of a request, but if someone wants to focus on being a Scholar and a non-combatant, they should probably not be able to go toe-to-toe with anyone dedicated to combat, and thinking more that they should have defensive measures that give them a chance to escape combat.
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Rias
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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Rias » Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:45 am

Lexx416 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:58 am
if someone wants to focus on being a Scholar and a non-combatant, they should probably not be able to go toe-to-toe with anyone dedicated to combat
This would be a fairly low percentage, so they'd be at a significant disadvantage going against anyone investing specifically in combat. Still though, I'm also liking the idea that it only works for some abilities like Binding Tendril, and not for raw attack casts. Binding Tendril can lash around and be sustained/directed more, unlike a raw cast that's just a more traditional attack aim-and-fire thing so only Ranged Combat would work for that. So this kind of thing for effect/disablers, but not meant-to-straight-kill spells. Then you can stand in the back in a group and help out with disablers/crowd control even if you're not unleashing a barrage of damaging attackers.

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Rias
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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Rias » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:07 pm

Acarin wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:19 am
So I know this has been asked many times but... can nether actually take a solid form?
Some examples you may be familiar with from The Other Game include Rasui's Cryosorcerous Disc, nethrium, and "demons" in general. (Aside: I've never really been fond of the term "demon" being specific to more corporeal/solid nethrim, but for better or worse it stuck over there. I may take this chance to rectify that here in COGG by coming up with a canon term for the phenomenon.) While none of those things can be found in COGG at this time and will likely go through some conceptual/lore changes before (/if) they do, the basic idea of nether taking a more solid form in certain situations has always been around.

Funnily enough, I just found a conversation between you and I about the various states of nether on The Other Game's BBS from back in 2012. Memory lane!

Acarin
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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Acarin » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:20 pm

Yeah, it was definitely around in the other game and we certainly had a good time discussing it! I had thought it wouldn't exist here since it required X-treme cryomancy in the other game which is not a thing here. I also think I asked about it on one of your calls and you were not sure that you wanted to go in that direction. Does this leave the door open for a pseudoscientific discussion on how nether can be converted into a solid form and its properties while solid?

I am happy to engage if this type of discourse is needed.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

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Rias
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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Rias » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:44 pm

Acarin wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:20 pm
Does this leave the door open for a pseudoscientific discussion on how nether can be converted into a solid form and its properties while solid? I am happy to engage if this type of discourse is needed.
Feel free to start a new thread about it over on the Sorcery boards. I'm still deliberating over how, or whether, I want to implement this type of thing, so it may be premature just yet. You're still welcome to dive into suggestions, theories, and speculations, though as you've likely noticed I'm quite a bite more cagey about how the metaphysics of this world works these days.

Acarin
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Re: Offensive Casting

Post by Acarin » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:31 pm

I just read my old posts from 2012 about the science behind nether and will not undertake that effort again unless there is a very real need... I am, perhaps, just a bit wiser in my old age.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

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