Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

For combat stuff that doesn't fit into any of the other forums.
User avatar
Candelori
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:29 pm

Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Candelori »

I would like to start by saying that combat is already quite enjoyable. I appreciate all the work that has gone into getting it to its current state. With that said, I would like to share some refinement suggestions.

Combat might benefit from some additional maneuvers to be used in various situations. Feint and Circle are certainly useful, but some additional management maneuvers would help combat feel more deliberate, skillful, and flowing than the current standard technique that is circle, feint, attack, repeat. Some generic maneuver suggestions:

Testing Strike: Make an intentionally restrained attack on your foe as you test their abilities and improve your own balance. If the blow lands, damage dealt is significantly lower than that of a normal attack. Negate any positive Offense Rerolls for this attack. Gain +4 Balance, +1 Reroll on your next attack against that foe.

Reckless Strike: Make a reckless strike against your foe with little regard for defense. +2 Offense Rerolls. Negate any of your own positive Defense Rerolls for the next 8 seconds.

Opportune Strike: Make an opportune but light strike against your foe. +2 Offense Rerolls. Damage dealt is significantly reduced. (This will be more useful if we return to Balance being more dynamic and adjusted on all attacks and defenses; more on this later.)

Pressuring Advance: Make an aggressive advance with a series of strikes intended not to land vital blows, but put overwhelming pressure on your foe as they are forced to dodge or ward off the attacks. No actual attacks are made as part of the maneuver, all the blows presumably being avoided by the target. Reduce the target's Balance to a varying degree based on the result of the roll. -1 to your Defense Rerolls for the next 5 seconds.

Baited Feint: Make a feigned attack on your foe, leaving an intentional apparent opening in your guard as you anticipate the counterattack you are baiting them into. This attack will always miss. On the next incoming attack from the target, +2 Defense Rerolls, favoring Block and Parry. If successfully Blocked or Parried, you deflect the incoming blow with such force that your foe loses 10 Balance and potentially suffers a brief Stagger. On an extremely successful Dodge, Block, or Parry, make an immediate counterattack.

Shove: A quick shove meant to unbalance your foe. Does no damage. -8 target Balance and a brief Stagger if the attack connects. -3 target Balance if it does not, as the enemy moves to avoid. This attack suffers a penalty to Rerolls against foes with longer reach. Extreme success results in a knockdown.

Observation: Take time to observe your foe's movements. +1 Offense Reroll to your next attack against that foe. +1 Defense Reroll against that foe for the next 8 seconds.

Preparation: Take time to prepare your next strike while observing your foe's movements. +4 Balance. +1 Defense Reroll for the next 5 seconds. +1 Offense Reroll on your next attack against that foe.

Scant thought was put into the numeric aspects of the above suggestions. I simply hoped they might serve as concept ideas to be built upon. Naturally, all would have cooldown periods. Some likely longer than others. I believe an expanded general toolkit of combat moves would help a fighter to feel they have more options and more strategic control in combat than simply repeating the same few maneuvers and waiting for them to cool down before repeating.

I would also like to suggest a possible consideration of taking balance more heavily into account for combat again. At one point in the past, balance was much more dynamic as it was gained when making any attack and lost when defending against any attackT. I believe the amount was increased if a hit was landed in either situation. Balance management was thus more than simply saving up for a maneuver, and taking on more than one foe at a time was significantly more challenging.

I also wondered if Balance might be made more impactful by having the damage of strikes be affected by the difference in the attacker's balance versus the target's. Combat might then be more about first getting into an advantageous situation and then making the powerful attacks. Early strikes may well still land and be impactful with their increased Balance adjustments, but not end the encounter overly quickly. There is some appeal in utilizing a series of maneuvers to build up toward that perfect moment to strike, all the while trading small but important blows with one's opponent.

Overall, I feel having some more strategic control over building up to the ideal moment to strike might possibly make combat feel more satisfying and skillful than simply building balance to the minimum threshold for a powerful attack and making a prayer to the random number generator. I would also prefer to see fewer situations where a combat encounter is over within mere seconds due to a lucky early mortal blow. Large weapons and improved strikes may still be powerful, but simply require some effort in the buildup to realize their highly lethal potential. While quick kills can be satisfying, I must admit that in my case I think I would prefer combat encounters involve more choice and deliberate interaction. Experience rewards per foe would likely need to be increased to compensate for the additional effort and time required.

To summarize my feelings: I feel combat encounters can often end too quickly as decided by RNG luck and mortal blows. With longer encounters, I would enjoy having additional maneuver options available to make the encounters feel more strategic and engaging.
Last edited by Candelori on Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My COGG website: https://candelori.neocities.org
You think to yourself, "I am tempted to henceforth refer to this as the Bicker Board."
You experience a sudden flash of insight, as though you have an increased understanding of who you are.
Rilulth
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:22 am

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Rilulth »

I said as such to you in Chat, but I do like some of these suggestions, particularly Testing Strike, Reckless Strike, Pressuring Advance and Observation.

With grouping of mobs now coming to the game, I look forward to seeing some more suggestions from you!
tulpa —
If we ever get player housing, Mistralite houseshares are going to be full of this stuff. "Damnit who let the thousand-year old angry venomous moths out of their velvet pouch again?"
User avatar
nobody
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by nobody »

Candelori wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:36 pm I also wondered if Balance might be made more impactful by having the damage of strikes be affected by the difference in the attacker's balance versus the target's. Combat might then be more about first getting into an advantageous situation and then making the powerful attacks. Early strikes may well still land and be impactful with their increased Balance adjustments, but not end the encounter overly quickly. There is some appeal in utilizing a series of maneuvers to build up toward that perfect moment to strike, all the while trading small but important blows with one's opponent.

Overall, I feel having some more strategic control over building up to the ideal moment to strike might possibly make combat feel more satisfying and skillful than simply building balance to the minimum threshold for a powerful attack and making a prayer to the random number generator. I would also prefer to see fewer situations where a combat encounter is over within mere seconds due to a lucky early mortal blow. Large weapons and improved strikes may still be powerful, but simply require some effort in the buildup to realize their highly lethal potential. While quick kills can be satisfying, I must admit that in my case I think I would prefer combat encounters involve more choice and deliberate interaction. Experience rewards per foe would likely need to be increased to compensate for the additional effort and time required.
In a way, damage is already impacted by the difference between the attacker's balance and the defender's - particularly if the defender is relying on dodge. Low balance will give opponents negative rerolls on defense, resulting in lower defense results, a larger gap between attack rolls and defense rolls and thus ultimately higher damage.

As for the sentiment of building up toward the perfect strike, I think that perfectly reflects the design goals behind duelist - have you considered trying out a duelist to see if that scratches that itch?

Edit to add: As for the feeling about mortal blows and quickly ended combat - consider how the nightblade would be impacted by this. They focus on quick, deadly combat and don't want it to be drawn out.

Second edit to add: After more thought, I wanted to expand the class idea a little more. I think each warrior class is intended to have a distinct feel for combat. I think combat could benefit from needing more tactical thought, but I don't know how to balance that with the nightblade's focus on one-hit-kills or short skirmishes, the duelists style of strategically studying their foe before striking them down, and dreadnaughts who shrug off attacks and hack through defenses with powerful strikes.
User avatar
Rias
DEV
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Wandering Temicotli

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Rias »

I've wanted to roll out yet another wave of combat updates, some to the effect of toning down instant death and instead putting more emphasis on setup and choice. Other priorities first, though. I appreciate the feedback and the suggestions - always nice to have some direction from the player perspective, since you all are the ones having the 100% authentic experience. My ability to gauge player experience from the developer side of the curtain is always going to be skewed (and biased), so it really is important to me to get player feedback and ideas.

I'll echo Rilulth and say I really like some of the additional move ideas! I'm not sure if some/any should possibly be Warrior-only, or if they should just be generally available to all for the standard combat experience and balance management game. Maybe being a Warrior could improve the effectiveness of some of them, to keep Warriors firmly on top of the combat game. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
nobody wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:44 am I think combat could benefit from needing more tactical thought, but I don't know how to balance that with the nightblade's focus on one-hit-kills or short skirmishes, the duelists style of strategically studying their foe before striking them down, and dreadnaughts who shrug off attacks and hack through defenses with powerful strikes.
For Nightblades: They could still have the stealth prep stage (reduced in time/effort from current) that starts them out with an ambush and some front-loaded balance, with the special ambush attack throwing off the target's balance from the get-go in addition to doing some good damage without being an instant "you didn't know I was here a nanosecond ago and now you're dead". I've always pushed that Nightblades should be capable and willing to engage in open combat, and to not expect to be able to rely solely on stealth attacks. While it was by my own choice and design that the Nightblade has ended up in its current place of the reliable-one-shot-stealth-kill thing, I don't think I like it that much - it denies the other party any chance to even try to do anything, and while death is rarely ever "fun", being killed instantly with zero knowledge, zero choice, and zero interaction is pretty much the worst way to experience it.

For Duelists: Could be more of a thing where as a target you want to try and push the Duelist into taking actions rather than allowing them to shrewdly observe you. You'd want to pull out the big guns early at the risk of not having had ample time to set up more favorable rolls for yourself, because you know that Duelist's preparations are going to far outclass your own in the same amount of time if you let them focus on that instead of defending/countering your own attacks. Or something like that? Hmmm.

I'm not seeing much of an impact on Dreadnoughts to make me worry about them, but maybe I'm missing something.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Acarin »

Nightblades get 1 shot kills on very successful rolls just like everyone else. I can currently sweep someone as a non-nightblade and hit them once in the head with a two hander (with way higher probability given the damage). The major advantage that nightblades have right now is that they get to attack first and therefore have that chance to kill before others can do the same (tackle, aimed attack, insta-kill). Kaiju has said many times that overall damage is too high (nightblades and duelists are the only 2 with lower damage and nightblades are the only ones that have restrictions on their weapon choice based on tactics and who cannot increase damage which does determine whether a mortal wound occurs). That being said, I do find myself failing first attacks on equally skilled (and even lower) opponents regularly and being forced to engage in open combat, particularly when fighting multiple mobs. I do hope nightblades actually remain functional in the future as it sounds like they will be singled out... there are many other imbalances in combat as well. I'll say that for now since no changes have been made yet.

I do think that this requires careful thought and the realization that this is not the entire story or current experience. It also seems some bias may be creeping in based on player tendencies or other assumptions. This game is supposed to be fun after all, and that goes for both sides. I do urge you, as you think this through, to also consider the mistakes that were made in other games.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
Dennis
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Dennis »

I think overall damage being reduced across the entire spectrum of combat so that instant death is less frequent for everyone would be better in terms of making combat more deliberate and strategic. I liked the post. Either simultaneous of or before a major change to maximum damage and thresholds takes place, I would like to see more combat maneuvers for both warriors guild and others in general, as open combat may become a repetitive and slow slog through energy.
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."
User avatar
Rias
DEV
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Wandering Temicotli

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Rias »

This is aimed at early instant death shots in general, be they an armor chink ambush with a dagger or an open attack with a mace. I responded to the cases brought up by Nobody. Presumably he mentioned Nightblades because they'd feel the biggest difference from a lack of regular early oneshot kill encounters, but this would affect everyone. Anyone can grab a nice poleaxe and see plenty of immediate mortal shot kills, regardless of class or guild.
<Rias> PUT ON PANTS
<Fellborn> NO
User avatar
nobody
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by nobody »

Rias wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:12 pm I'll echo Rilulth and say I really like some of the additional move ideas! I'm not sure if some/any should possibly be Warrior-only, or if they should just be generally available to all for the standard combat experience and balance management game. Maybe being a Warrior could improve the effectiveness of some of them, to keep Warriors firmly on top of the combat game. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
Reckless Strike and Shove seem like things anyone can do, and warriors (especially those specialized toward it) will do it better (probably by doing it with less risk/exposure)
Observation/Preparation - I feel like these are very similar and that maybe preparation is the warriors' observation?
Opportune Strike and Pressuring Advance both require an adequate understanding of combat, so they should have a melee skill requirement or be limited to trained warriors altogether
Testing Strike as above, but more skillful so either a higher skill prereq or warrior only.
Baited Feint feels like a warrior's upgraded feint. Also appropriate for Bards and other classes that "have a read on people"

As for dreadnaught (and berserker), their schtick in combat is wielding a two-handed weapon and hitting very hard. As noted, that is currently pretty lethal. If the next wave of updates will reduce that lethality though, they could certainly benefit from more tactical moves like the ones suggested.

And last semi-connected note, will ranged get any updates in that wave as well? I know there are a lot of people that love ranged combat in general and that it isn't quite where you want it to be, and it probably needs to be moved toward a less lethal place if that is where melee is headed as well.
Acarin
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Acarin »

Just a note... I think expanded tactics for combat pressing (meaning, preventing players from just running away immediately) are very much needed if battles will be more drawn out... otherwise this will be problematic for faction/CvC combat as people will just immediately and easily escape as they get close to being in danger.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
User avatar
nobody
Posts: 501
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by nobody »

Acarin wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:54 pm Just a note... I think expanded tactics for combat pressing (meaning, preventing players from just running away immediately) are very much needed if battles will be more drawn out... otherwise this will be problematic for faction/CvC combat as people will just immediately and easily escape as they get close to being in danger.
I agree about pressing. I disagree that pressing will be necessarily relevant for faction CvC - if all of your opponents flee a contested site whilst still alive, congrats, you still won the contested site.
Post Reply