Combat: Warriors vs Non-Warriors

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Karjus
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Combat: Warriors vs Non-Warriors

Post by Karjus »

So, I'd like to talk about the glaring difference between the enjoyment, effectiveness, and options available to the two main groups of people who engage in combat. Warriors and non-Warriors. Rias has made it clear, that out of the variety of Guilds, he wants Warriors to specifically shine there as it's their jam, and while others may pick it up they'll both never be quite as effective in comparison to a Warrior with equal skills but that their Guild won't overly support it via Abilities. It's pretty much a flip on the discussions that have been held regarding the eventual release of Artisans and how to make lesser skilled crafters both relevant, and still useful in a world with hyper-focused 700 skill Artisans.

Just as a preface, I will be discussing primarily Melee. My experience with Ranged Combat is non-existent beyond Warlock pew-pew as is my knowledge on Stealth since both have changed a lot and I don't play those characters any more. I'll mention both later, but definitely take my thoughts there with a grain of salt.

I think most people who have played a Warrior to a certain level, enough to pick up a few abilities beyond their initial Tactic, have found it enjoyable. Some don't like the whole lack of auto-attacking, and reliance on timing but as a whole once they've clicked with the systems feedback has seemed positive. It's dynamic for a MUD, it's different, and it supports a variety of styles but I've not heard a non-Warrior take much enjoyment in it. To paraphrase user Nobody (Hope he doesn't mind me putting him on the spotlight), when he finally tried a Warrior it was only then that he actually understood the hype behind Combat. It may function as it is, but due to options/abilities it's more swish than hit. It's also the complete opposite of Crafting as it currently is where if you have Skill, it's very useful and not gated behind anything else (with exception for Blades, which is a general ability).

Honestly, I think that covers the issues with it and lumps in Effectiveness/Options all in one. Melee users basically can feint until their opponent has negative rerolls. Use a circle to get enough balance to get a reroll, then truestrike. Rinse and repeat. Throw in the fact that truestrike is *awful* in comparison to any Warrior ability and it just feels very... "Meh".

So, what would I do to change that? Well. Tiered abilities have been brought up before, and we've also seen a few abilities that change depending on Guild. I kind of think that needs to be embraced. Give people options. They may never be as super effective as a Warrior of the same Guild using it, but say Mr Bard wants to go the swashbuckling route and be a bit combat orientated. Possibly, he picks up some Abilities that make him feel like a Duelist even though he'll never be as good as one at equal Skill. Warriors should definitely be the best in combat, but just as we've the Duelist Trading Consortium, I'd love to see the Painbringer Physickers.

Some examples...

Side by Side: Two options. Make it slightly weaker than it is currently, but see an increase to current rate at 450 melee, or simply have it increase if you're in the Warriors Guild.

Combat Readiness: I'd honestly just make this general. It's a *hugely* important ability in allowing some variation in combat due to the additional balance. Or, reduce it to 3 for Non-Guild. Change the wording so it isn't always regarding combat, and could make it function elsewhere. Could offer synergy bonuses to Acrobatics and Dancing.

Tackle: Increased energy cost (to 25), and less target balance loss (down to -25). Possible options could also be scaling via Melee again, with up to original results at 450, or 400 Melee skill.

Shield Charge: See above for Tackle, and a variation of.

Shield Bash: Could increase cooldown, with possible reductions for Skill/Guild.

Tumble: Increased cooldown, scaling, etc.

Graceful Dodge: Is this general? This should be general.

Honestly, I think for most abilities with some scaling in regards to cooldown, effects, minimum balance required, they could be made applicable as General abilities. There are of course, some that really shouldn't be. The signature stuff. Tactics for example. The Duelist's Cloak Parry, Combat Analysis, Dreadnought's Blade Catch, and etc.

Not everyone is going to want to do combat, and not everyone is going to want to dedicate themselves to it. But why not throw all the options at people like you do with skills so we have to suffer and agonize over options.

Also. Truestrike. Seriously. At perhaps 100+ Melee, it should spend all balance but say 3-5. That would go a long way to making it useable.

Now for the bit to take with a grain of salt. I don't think Stealth and Ranged currently suffer as much from this. I can't think of any Warrior Guilds that really offer abilities for Ranged, so what is needed to make it fun/effective are built into the Skill as a base. Stealth, I believe is the same though there are abilities which do make it more useful in terms if you're a Nightblade. I think this sort of philosophy should be kept in mind when expanding both those areas as well.

As it is, I think Riding might be the most useful combat supplement for Non-Warriors as it's currently just as effective for them as it is Warriors. They can get access to consistent rerolls, and lack the ability to utilize anything to reduce their opponents balance as well.

Edit: I also think even allowing one reroll to basic attacks for balance would go a long way in making it more effective for non-Warriors, Warriors and monsters alike.
- Karjus

Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
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nobody
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Re: Combat: Warriors vs Non-Warriors

Post by nobody »

I can definitely attest that combat is more interesting as a warrior than non-warrior and a big part of that (I think) is as additional combat maneuvers become available combat becomes more of a thinking activity than a mindless activity.

I love the idea of opening up tiered down version of side-by-side for everyone as it is an ability that encourages grouping and those are almost always going to make the game better. I could also see opening up shield bash, tackle, and maybe shield charge and sweep. The tiering for them is really easy: for non-warriors take away all of the offensive re-rolls. I'm not as crazy about upping the energy cost, but decreasing the balance loss, and especially the balance loss on a miss, would also make the abilities less powerful. Maybe have the combat rerolls work as (non-warrior: 0, warrior: 1, warrior using specialized tactic: 2). That'd make shield bash and shield charge unchanged for any warriors that already have them, and weaker for any additions. It'd make tackle the same as it is, unless you add specialized tactics to say dreadnaughts, berserkers, and marauders and then it'd make it even better for them. That would also make sweep a much better move for nightblades and duelists as it presently appears to get no offensive rerolls at all (that might be because it's so light on the energy cost though).
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Talyn
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Re: Combat: Warriors vs Non-Warriors

Post by Talyn »

I really got to thinking Side-by-Side would be a great addition for non-warrior guilds. Bards sort of get it but even just the assist from your party and even the follow up attack would help even if they don't get rerolls. I really like the idea of non-warriors getting it.
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Acarin
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Re: Combat: Warriors vs Non-Warriors

Post by Acarin »

I think this is getting too close to a general skill system if we start duplicating weakened warrior abilities and give them to everything. This would runs the risk of devaluing warriors by giving non-warriors enough options where they can gain additional combat advantage through their guild's unique abilities (I'm thinking adventurers, mainly). I'm not against 1 or 2 more combat abilities for non-warriors but think they need to remain limited and toned down. This is a choice people make from the beginning and I really like that there is a divide there and assume it's intentional. If non-warriors are given warrior combat ability equivalents, then warriors should also be given toned down non-warrior abilities... and then you end up with a general ability system in the end which I'm guessing Rias is trying to avoid.

I would suggest that any general combat abilities given to non-warriors also have a potential benefit to warriors (additive) and represent basic combat principles or functionality rather than duplicate existing abilities, otherwise it is just a step towards decreasing the combat gap between warriors and non-warriors when that gap seems intentional.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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Karjus
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Re: Combat: Warriors vs Non-Warriors

Post by Karjus »

I'm all for a gap, but I'd suggest that putting points into a skill only to have the entire experience be "unfun" and seemingly "pointless" would be something to avoid as well. Same coin as making crafting relevant/enjoyable beyond Artisans/the best.
- Karjus

Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
Acarin
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Combat: Warriors vs Non-Warriors

Post by Acarin »

Agree. I'm just against duplication of warrior guild abilities. If additional combats abilities are added, I'd like to see them be basic abilities that are also usable by warriors and still limited.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
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