Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

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nobody
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Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

Post by nobody »

I started writing up a proposal for ranged combat this morning, but realized I didn't think it fit well. I also realized, I don't know the end goal. Should ranged combat implement a positional system in each room where positions are tracked and distance is calculated? Should it be more glossed over, like the position system? They both have advantages, I'm just not sure what the end goal is. If it's a gloss-over approach where position in the room matters less, how do you add the feel of distance without having to deal with the minutiae of distance mechanics?
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Re: Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

Post by Rias »

I think I want to avoid over-complicating, but I'm happy to hear ideas. My fallback plan is to just use the system some here have experienced in the past with the Avoid, Ranged, and Engage positions. Though I think "Engage" could be changed to "Melee" to be a little more clear.

In fact, I'll probably do the 3 positions thing sooner than later, and then tweaks (or overhauls) can be done as ideas come up and click. I'm sure something would be better than nothing at this point.
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Re: Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

Post by Rias »

Gosh darnit. Now that you've got me thinking about it, I'm already thinking up more complicated ideas. I do think it would be good for ranged attackers to have a guaranteed round or two while meele attackers close in, rather than leaving it up to a simple roll of the dice yes/no situation where they could potentially get 0 benefit from their ranged weapon's ... range.

Of course, there would also be potential options for melee fighters to close the distance quicker, such as rush attacks, mounted charges, etc. But the idea of ranged users virtually always benefiting from a few leading shots against melee attackers does sound pretty nice.

Time to go do some pacing while I think of how to set up a system that isn't overly complex.
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Re: Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

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I'd be good with either way. What I'd drafted up split engage into Hand, Close, Melee, Reach, and maybe Extended Reach? and then Ranged was split into Near and Far, adding in maneuvers for advance, withdraw, and retreat (and modifying charge). Then tack numbers over the top of those ranges so that you can differentiate naturally advancing to your weapon/fighting style's preferred distance as you circle/feint/attack, etc. vs larger jumps in distance from advance, withdraw, or retreat. It fell apart though when I thought about managing distance against multiple combatants.

At the very least, it was a useful thought exercise because I realized that "Ranged" and "Avoid" occupy the same distance spaces, but ranged is "I'm going to stop moving to shoot at you" while avoid is "I'll just keep moving thanks!" - that kind of makes me think that it would be nice to factor in roundtime penalties when trying to close or open the distance, though that might make ranged combat over powered.

Edit to add: Actually, factoring roundtime into opening or closing the distance might be just what you're looking for with helping ranged combatants get in a shot or two before the distance is closed. Either that or a system like heat/risk vs searching, where you can avoid people for a while in ranged, but the more your opponent tries to close the distance the harder and harder it gets to maintain range (it'd be easier to avoid getting engaged in combat if you're actively avoiding with maneuvers and more difficult to avoid getting engaged in combat if you're stopping to fire periodically).
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Re: Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

Post by Fall »

Getting a free shot before melee would be perfect for me. I want to start by throwing a bunch of knives or firing a crossbow if I ever get one, and then charge into melee with my weapon.
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Re: Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

Post by nobody »

I like the direction of the new ranged combat. Some observations:
  • At least as of this morning, the fire command when used with a sling did not automatically change position from avoid to engage. This makes ranged weapons quite possibly too good.
  • There does not appear to be any randomness in proximity - when using either position avoid or position engage it was pretty predictable when melee range would be reached (I've only tested against limited mobs, so I don't know if there is variance across mobs). I think it would be ideal of it were a little more random - at present treasure hunters/rouges could run through terueka or dusklamp unstealthed to do treasure hunting and as long as they kept moving swiftly enough they'd be in no real danger. I imagine if one is not hidden (or hidden but seen upon entering the room) the proximity should be a little more randomized. Stealth gives a bit of luxury in choosing distance.
  • Currently there appears to be no mechanic limiting one's ability to disengage from combat and get to another room. Combined with the above lack of randomness, it seems that a ranged combatant could fire a shot, leave the room, come back, fire a shot, and repeat ad mortem with very little risk.
  • There is a notice when one is in melee range, but it would be nice if there were a warning when attacking from stealth with a melee weapon from outside melee range (warning: you're out of melee range and will not connect with your target. Use attack again to confirm, or try stalking your target to get a little closer). Once or twice I jumped out to attack only to find I was too far away, though it was quite amusing to see my target surprised at my appearance from a distance.
I also have the following related ability suggestions:
  • A generic warrior guild ability to automatically makes it more difficult for an opponent to escape from melee combat (maybe toggle-able?).
  • A marauder (and dreadnaught and/or duelist?) ability (or tiered effect) to try to trip (or hamstring) a fleeing opponent.
  • A berserker (and dreadnaught?) ability (or tiered effect) to try to make a powerful strike on a fleeing opponent.
  • A duelist ability (or tiered effect) to try to flip over a fleeing opponent, thus temporarily blocking their escape (and normal beneficial effects of flipping your opponent).
  • A nightblade ability (or tiered effect) that tries to automatically hide and stalk a fleeing opponent.
  • A ranged-warrior ability (or tiered effect) that tries to fire off an extra shot on a fleeing opponent.
  • A guardian ability (or tiered effect) that grants the guardian an energy or balance or morale boost when an opponent flees.
  • An ability for mounted warriors to automatically attempt to charge/run down a fleeing opponent.
For each of the class abilities/tiered effects, I imagine it being a range from triggers 100% of the time to triggers only some of the time, or a channeled ability where it can happen randomly but if you're channeling triggers 100% of the time.

The ranged-warrior class will probably need some specific abilities to keep from being pinned down in melee as well.
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Re: Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

Post by Rias »

nobody wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:18 pm [*] Currently there appears to be no mechanic limiting one's ability to disengage from combat and get to another room. Combined with the above lack of randomness, it seems that a ranged combatant could fire a shot, leave the room, come back, fire a shot, and repeat ad mortem with very little risk.
Per the latest changelog: Changelog-Combat: Combat proximity between characters will no longer reset to 0 upon moving to a different room. Instead, combat proximity between two characters will tick down every second that the two characters are not in the same room.

This means if your target bolts from the room, you can chase after them to preserve your combat proximity by trying to keep in the same room as them as much as possible. This should also prevent the exploitable "fire a few times, leave the room and come back to instantly reset proximity and be able to fire again without combat proximity" thing. And lastly, this should take care of the issue of stalking targets in preparation for ambushing them, since stalkers will no longer lose any combat proximity as they immediately follow their prey via stalking.

Many other good points in your post, Nobody. Keep an eye out for additional changelogs and replies here.
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Re: Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

Post by nobody »

A couple points I've thought of since my prior post:
  • It might make sense to code a minimum proximity for rooms and default everywhere to 0, then add higher minimums for smaller rooms (like the curtained alcove in the Shadgard chapel might have a minimum that is 'you're always in melee range' while places like the Terueka farmhouse halls/bedrooms might default to midway between melee and 0 - I don't know how large they're intended to be but it makes sense that keeping range is going to be more difficult the smaller the room).
  • Various charge maneuvers should probably cover more ground than the distance covered by attack/stalk, especially a mounted charge (that could also make warmount speed stats more relevant!).
And another ability idea:
  • Berserkers (and others?) might appreciate a hurl-charge ability that hurls a hurlable weapon and closes distance like an attack, but I wouldn't make it the default hurl behavior for everyone.
Thanks for the update - it seems to be working pretty well, though I still have an untested idea for poking at it that I need to try. Also very clever coding to use proximity with a natural floor of 0 rather than distance, I was wondering how to keep a ranged-warrior with an ability to add distance from just opening an insane amount of distance while a guardian plays tank, but with proximity it just stops at 0 and you're as far away as you can get.
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Re: Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

Post by nobody »

I've collected a few more oddities worth reporting and thought I'd mention them here:
  • When guarding another character, attacks against that character can be intercepted without regard to proximity of other mobs or the guarded character. IE, Alice and Betty haven't attacked or stalked each other, so they have no proximity to each other mechanically. A Mob approaches Betty and begins melee with her while Alice is guarding Betty. Alice cannot attack Mob because it is out of melee range, but she can intercept attacks on Betty, and probably that combination shouldn't happen. Consider having any guarding/guarded people share a common set of proximity values, perhaps by modifying the proximity function to check for guarding/guarded status and push the approach to the other person also. That route might not be the best though because it needs to be semi-recursive to capture situations where Alice and Candice are both guarding Betty, and a mob approaches Alice (and should thus be getting closer to Betty because she is guarded, but should also be getting closer to Candice, because Candice is also guarding Betty, but shouldn't be getting closer to Alice or Betty twice). I'd suggest using the group mechanics instead, but it is possible to guard someone and not be in a group with them.
  • Tactics: Guardian also allows counter attacks against intercepted attacks, and ignores melee range in so doing. So if Alice is guarding Betty and out of melee range with Mob, Mob could attack Betty, that attack could be intercepted by Alice, and then Alice could counter attack Mob, even though she cannot attack Mob because of melee range.
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Re: Ranged combat, what is it supposed to be like?

Post by Keleran »

I thought I would ask this question here for clarification as it was asked in CHAT:

Can the abilities combat precision and true strike be used for ranged attacks? If so, how would they work from hiding?
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