Difficulty: Mob Defenses

For combat stuff that doesn't fit into any of the other forums.
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Karjus
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Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by Karjus »

Hi guys,

Currently I tend to think combat in Cogg is far too easy for a variety of reasons with the implemented selection of monsters. One of those reasons that I'd like to look over here as to why that is, is their relative attack/defense rolls and how they align with each other compared to a player.

These comparisons will follow the basic idea that the player will be attacking in Stance Offense, and the Mob will also be in Stance Offense as the player has waited for them to attack. It will also follow the rough idea that an equal attack rating means they're generally relative in skill.

What follows below could be considered spoilers I guess by some, so unless you want to know mob rolls and some of what is currently wandering the lands, then please don't read any further.
  • Tomb Hound = Attack: 200+D100 // Defense: 150
  • Bog Body = Attack: 100+D100 // Defense: 75
  • Mossy Shambler = Attack: 50+D100 // Defense: 37
  • Skeleton = Attack: 25+D100 // Defense: 18
With the way Cogg mechanics works, lets compare each Mobs own attack (As we're using this as a rough roll of a player of equal skill attacking it) against their defense to see what sort of results we'd get. Remember, any point over a Mob's defense results in a hit, and every point over that defense scales the damage upwards.
  • Tomb Hound: 200-150+D100 // Result of 50+D100 over their defense. Always a guarantied hit and a hard one
  • Bog Body: 100-75+D100 // Result of 25+D100 over their defense. Always a guarantied hit, and still decent
  • Mossy Shambler: 50-37+D100 // Result of 13+D100 over their defense. Always a guarantied hit, but could range in damage
  • Skeleton: 25-18+D100 // Result of 7+D100 over their defense. Still always a guarantied hit, but could range in damage
From the beginning, fighting like for like, it's easy to hit Mobs and cause damage. The further on you get, it becomes even easier. While features such as weapons/armor/abilities for mobs could start making them more dangerous, I think the way mob defensive numbers scale needs to be looked at as well and that there should always be a chance to simply miss if you're fighting an equal "skill" opponent without doing additional debuffs/moves.

Numbers I'd potentially consider for those current mobs would probably look like the following;
  • Tomb Hound (225): 200-225+D100 // Result of -25+D100, require a 26+ to land a hit
  • Bog Body (120): 100-120+D100 // Result of -20+D100, require a 21+ to land a hit
  • Mossy Shambler (40): 50-60+D100 // Result of -10+d100, require a 11+ to land a hit
  • Skeleton (30): 25-30+d100 // Result of -5+d100, require a 6+ to land a hit
Starts easier though still not a guarantied hit, and then the further up you go in terms of skill, the more your opponents start being able to avoid hits even if you dance around their blows. Throw in player abilities, debuffs, and so forth, and it might help with making it worthwhile for the player to manage each fight instead of an attack fest.

Then... there's mob abilities/attacks, but that might be another post.

Thanks for reading if you got this far!
- Karjus

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Rias
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Re: Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by Rias »

Tuning combat has been a lot harder than I anticipated, so any feedback is greatly appreciated. Anyone else with observations or feelings on the subject, please share.

One thing that immediately came to mind while reading this post: When I added the Dodge and Shield skills and reduced the dodge/block numbers granted by the Melee skill alone, I neglected to update critters and give them some Dodge skill. Many mobs don't have weapons to parry with, and so currently have subpar defenses due to their lack of Dodge skill.
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Karjus
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Re: Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by Karjus »

That should help to some degree Rias, but I think there is still going to be too little gap. To use Spearfishers as an example
  • Spearfisher = Attack: 25+d100 // Defense: 25
  • 25-25+d100 // Result of 0+d100 over their defense. Guarantied hit
It could be that maybe monsters need to get more dodge/parry/block per skill point than players, just to ensure players don't always have a 100%+ chance as soon as they're in offense.
- Karjus

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Rias
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Re: Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by Rias »

I made a few changes to stance numbers (there's a little more RNG at play now, but stances still heavily stack your rolls toward either offense or defense), and I'm also allowing NPCs to cheat a bit with their stances: When they go stance offense, they retain more defense than PCs do. This is to help balance them against you clever, stance-dancing, timing-gauging, maneuver-chaining humans. And to prevent them from constantly getting one-hit-killed by normal attacks. Not that one-hit kills won't happen anymore, they just won't be as dependable against foes of like skill. Or at least, that's the intent.

I also updated a few things about the combat calculator in general, but details are too fiddly for me to really go into.

So fighter-type folks, jump in there and let me know how combat feels with the changes. And as always - report bugs.

Oh, and tomb hounds are scarier now. Just so people are aware.
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Karjus
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Re: Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by Karjus »

In an attempt to test this a bit more fully, I decided to try a new character today. Going up to 100 Melee, I've found it highly enjoyable. You really can't mess around without armor, and have to stance dance or you're pretty easy prey.

On the flip side, I've *struggled* to overhunt by even 25 skill, let alone further, and I almost feel like the EXP per kill might be a little too light. It's starting to feel like a lot more risk and effort is required per kill, which I think is how it should be, but that shouldn't be worth minimal EXP.

Still messing around with things, but I definitely thinks this works really well in the +/- 25 range of your skill. Beyond that, it's either extremely difficult to land a hit or incredibly easy.
- Karjus

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Candelori
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Re: Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by Candelori »

I am enjoying the most recent changes. I certainly would have died several times today when carelessly leaving my stance at offense, as the enemy attacks against me were resulting in the hundreds at times. Fortunately for me, they were not wielding any weapons.

I do think I prefer the smaller range of effectiveness, though this brings me to another worry of mine regarding skillgains. I am currently only level two, and already have 100 Melee skill. This puts me beyond several foes that I feel I never had the opportunity to adequately experience. While I cannot speak as to the experience with other skills, I might suggest some sort of cap on combat skillgain per level, in order to prevent players from rapidly bounding past entire combat zones. Not only can this feel to players as though we are missing out on content in a way, but it also makes me worry that development efforts that go into these skipped combat zones are tragically going to waste.
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Karjus
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Re: Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by Karjus »

I had a similar thought regarding the swiftness in which you can get past the mobs as well to begin with, but I think once you start needing armor skill for armor there is going to be a limit on just how much you could dump into a skill.

Still, maybe there could be a limit to how much a skill can actually raise per level?

Level 1: Max 50 so they'd likely go from 0 to 75 range probably
Level 2: Max 100 for the 75-125 range
Level 3: Max 150 for the 125-175 range (Though at this point I started having luck with Hounds who are 200)

Not ideal, and you'd still quickly go past the current mob selection fairly quickly but then cost to raise skill would kick in a lot more and it would be harder to simply pump it all into one skill.
- Karjus

Speaking to you, XYZ says, "Never bother to wash it. It gets dirty again anyway."
Speaking to XYZ, you say, "I hope you don't treat your ass the same way."
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Rias
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Re: Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by Rias »

I've mulled over the idea of a skill cap in general per level, but so far haven't been particularly sold on it. I kind of like the idea of being able to get a quick start, and the pace slowing down as you get better at a skill (due to higher cost per skill point at higher skill levels).

Putting one in for combat skills though, I think might not be a bad idea. In addition to helping prevent people from skipping areas/content, it might also help prevent them from dumping all points into Melee/Ranged and neglecting defensive skills (thought admittedly, not everyone is expected to dedicate to defense skills beyond the defense they get from straight Melee skill). And of course, encourage people to diversify beyond going 100% combat.
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Kiyaani
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Re: Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by Kiyaani »

In my brief combat testing period I noticed my skill surpassed areas really quickly as well - but this was before the changes last week and I haven't tested since so maybe that's changed somewhat. I really like the idea of adjusting this in some way.

I think it would be a good thing to put somewhat of a limit on how much combat skill you can increase per level - at least until more area diversity is added. An alternative might be to lower the practice gained from combat overall so players can experience certain zones for a longer time before out-leveling them.

I had a very similar experience to what Candelori faced. One of the issues I had starting out was I stayed in one zone and quickly out-skilled it before really exploring other areas, then found several other places to play around with combat that were, at that point, all too low to net XP or practice gains. Since COGG doesn't allow people to alter tactics to make areas viable for gains longer, I didn't see a point in sticking around so missed out on those areas entirely.

I think some degree of slow-down in any form wouldn't hurt. I found myself filling the bucket, spending all my points and practice very soon after leveling, and essentially having to wait for long stretches as I worked to get experience and catch my level and skill point allotment up to how fast I was gaining practice.
malasai
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Re: Difficulty: Mob Defenses

Post by malasai »

Not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but entry level combat seems super hard now. I could probably hunt ravens, but they die in two hits and aren't really suitable for leveling up skills. I don't know if numbers have changed or if it's all the addition of weapons, but vagrants would have wrecked me if I stuck around and I couldn't really hit them.
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