Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

For combat stuff that doesn't fit into any of the other forums.
Dennis
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Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Dennis » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:59 pm

I think as part of combat prolongment, tactically, perhaps if disengagement occured in phases, much like how engaging occurs in phases, which could be expedited by 'fleeing' to move 2 paces away from all engaged enemies (similar to how charge can move you 2 paces closer), and only being able to leave when you have left engagement with all parties.

While I think making combat more engaging and tactical would be nice I fear it would be less accessible for the VI community.
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."

Acarin
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Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Acarin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:15 pm

nobody wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:58 pm
Acarin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:54 pm
Just a note... I think expanded tactics for combat pressing (meaning, preventing players from just running away immediately) are very much needed if battles will be more drawn out... otherwise this will be problematic for faction/CvC combat as people will just immediately and easily escape as they get close to being in danger.
I agree about pressing. I disagree that pressing will be necessarily relevant for faction CvC - if all of your opponents flee a contested site whilst still alive, congrats, you still won the contested site.
I anticipate more fleeing, quickly treating wounds and coming back a minute or two later... and if every time we attack someone, they can just type a direction to get away easily... then that will not be fun. If it takes time to kill something/someone, it should be equally difficult to get away.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how this could also be made to not significantly favor specializations that are designed to outlast or those with heavy weapons... as it seems like the intent is to just draw out battles more. It also has a chance of removing the opportunity for a lower level combatant to get lucky... I do hope that quick kills will still be enabled in some form and every combat encounter doesn't turn into a 10 minute encounter.
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nobody
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Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by nobody » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:29 pm

Acarin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:15 pm
I do hope that quick kills will still be enabled in some form and every combat encounter doesn't turn into a 10 minute encounter.
I can agree with the sentiment. What do you think the sweet spot is for combat against a foe? Right now a long battle for me is a minute and I feel like a minute or three wouldn't be bad, but ten would feel rather drawn out. If I'm attacking every 5 seconds for 10 minutes It'd run me 600 energy and I'd be dead. With ranged there isn't much else to do but repeatedly fire though. Circling would be useful if I were relying on dodge instead of stealth or shield use, and aim shot is mostly good at the start of combat and less valuable after that (and utterly useless outside of stealth because one cannot reliably get in an aim and fire without having the aim spoiled by needing to dodge).

Dennis
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Dennis » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:31 pm

Acarin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:15 pm
nobody wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:58 pm
Acarin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:54 pm
Just a note... I think expanded tactics for combat pressing (meaning, preventing players from just running away immediately) are very much needed if battles will be more drawn out... otherwise this will be problematic for faction/CvC combat as people will just immediately and easily escape as they get close to being in danger.
I agree about pressing. I disagree that pressing will be necessarily relevant for faction CvC - if all of your opponents flee a contested site whilst still alive, congrats, you still won the contested site.
I anticipate more fleeing, quickly treating wounds and coming back a minute or two later... and if every time we attack someone, they can just type a direction to get away easily... then that will not be fun. If it takes time to kill something/someone, it should be equally difficult to get away.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how this could also be made to not significantly favor specializations that are designed to outlast or those with heavy weapons... as it seems like the intent is to just draw out battles more. It also has a chance of removing the opportunity for a lower level combatant to get lucky... I do hope that quick kills will still be enabled in some form and every combat encounter doesn't turn into a 10 minute encounter.
I think I read the overall intent as one less to remove instakills from the board entirely, but to make it a part of the tactical journey, but I would likely suggest to say that the sentiment is to turn what is a 3 second encounter to a general average of a minute to 3, as what nobody said. I think this statement "throwing off the target's balance from the get-go in addition to doing some good damage without being an instant "you didn't know I was here a nanosecond ago and now you're dead"." is probably what captures that idea most for nightblade specifically, which is to say that you would be entering combat from an advantageous position.
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."

Acarin
Posts: 191
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Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Acarin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:54 pm

Right, but there's a difference between entering in an advantageous position which doesn't matter because the battle is going to go on for 5 minutes anyway... versus not instantly killing but still being able to end it quickly. If mortal wounds are removed, this means that the person with the highest damage or most armor wins regardless of initial advantage since rt is the same for both...

There are some mobs right now that you can't crit and they're currently not all that enjoyable (at least for me) since they take forever and you just plink away at them slowly.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

Dennis
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Dennis » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:06 pm

"versus not instantly killing but still being able to end it quickly. If mortal wounds are removed, this means that the person with the highest damage or most armor wins regardless of initial advantage since rt is the same for both..."
it is certainly something to take into account.

in regards to "There are some mobs right now that you can't crit and they're currently not all that enjoyable (at least for me) since they take forever and you just plink away at them slowly." I agree. It is my hope that by increasing variety and interactivity of combat that prolonged combat becomes more enjoyable. I think versus critters there's something to be said for the instant kill gameplay but when it comes to characters it becomes more complex a topic. Perhaps we could adopt special rules for mobiles versus characters, which is popular in many modern mmo games that have both pve and pvp elements.
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."

Acarin
Posts: 191
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Acarin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:28 pm

I'm not sure that mob rules should be any different than CvC. Players are smarter and can utilize more strategy and are therefore inherently harder to kill. For those of us that enjoy CvC, having our ability to actually be able to successfully perform a kill taken away is a bit annoying. I dont mind having to take an extra few steps to successfully kill or use strategy but I do mind having that ability stripped down so that it essentially becomes an exercise of asking consent to kill another player by giving them multiple opportunities to disengage (meaning, it takes so long to kill that they chuckle and just walk away when you attack or ignore the danger because there is none). If I am skilled enough and my intent is to kill someone, I should be able to do that without asking their permission for 5+ combat rounds.
EDIT: just adding that my feeling is that there is already a consent to CvC checklist that needs to be filled out - meaning I feel obligated to double check every part of the policy and spend time thinking about whether I can reasonably justify the kill I already would have performed normally - and then double check justification... and look at previous interactions and make sure that my intent cannot be misinterpreted. While I am fine with the current policy, it is already limiting to antagonistic players and feels like freedom to play my character is limited because I am forced to rethink decisions I would have usually felt justified in making and also hold back interactions, much like the other game. Not being able to successfully kill after making it through that list and giving a bunch more opportunities to allow someone to walk would quickly make me walk away.

We seem to be taking a realistic approach recently and quick kills and mortal wounds in battle are VERY realistic. The actual speed of death is not realistic for some injuries but... one way of addressing this is just for mortal wounds to actually take longer to kill, allowing the injured player to take longer to die and be able to perform some additional actions before so they don't feel so bad about it and have time to take in that they're going to die. What that doesn't mean is that a physiker will magically treat a trauma that even modern medicine can't treat and save someone's life. A mortal wound should still be a mortal wound. There should be a sense of danger and if that sense is removed, then that, to me, is a huge problem... that said, I don't mind toying with my prey for a little bit before it dies.
Last edited by Acarin on Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
You reach toward ((DEV Rias)) ... Pull(d225([1]x)):214 vs Mark(d1100):714 = -500 (-222%)
You notice ((DEV Rias)) glance your way, causing you to quickly withdraw your hand from his wool
drawstring pouch (open).
Roundtime: 5 seconds.

Dennis
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am

Re: Suggestions to make combat feel more deliberate and strategic

Post by Dennis » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:32 pm

good perspective share!
"Always remember that we are a community before anything else. Before being a 'game' or a 'world' we are a bunch of folk who get together to have fun."

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